I thought Peter Collier’s article was illuminating and positive regarding a way forward. However, I am still trying to unravel all the negatives in this paragraph: “In those circumstances, and having regard to the absence of any reference to, let alone requirement for, sexual intimacy in a same-sex marriage, and having said that entering a civil partnership is not of itself inconsistent with leading an exemplary life, it seems to me that there is no good reason why the Bishops should not say that entering into such a “marriage” is also not in and of itself an ecclesiastical offence.” There… Read more »
Last edited 20 days ago by Nigel Goodwin
Martin Hughes
19 days ago
This legal argument is really beside the point. Sex may not be assumed to be part of marriage but if married couples desire and experience sexual intimacy with each other that activity is pronounced by the Church to be blessed, perhaps with the proviso that some forms of intimacy – those that involve choking, perhaps – are subject to specific moral objection.The ‘traditionalist’ belief is that gay sex can’t take any form not subject to specific moral objection, so there can no pronouncement or even substantial hint that any gay union is offered any kind or degree of affirmation which… Read more »
David Runcorn
19 days ago
In his further critique of the FAOC papers, Peter Collier comments: ‘The advice from FAOC seems to me to be provided almost as if we believe that the Church is shaping the law of marriage for England and Wales, as it did in the 18th century. It is very much speaking within its own bubble.’ I went back to one of FAOC’s first productions in 2013 – GS1046: ‘Men and women in marriage’. As the TA archive shows it too was heavily criticised and on similar grounds — for its lack of engagement with the development of marriage through history. Commenting… Read more »
In the same book, Mike Higton reminds us that marriage is a gift we are still receiving, ending: “Despite the length and volume of the arguments about marriage and sexuality in my Church, these questions, about the demands of Christian holiness in the realm of gender, are ones that demand much more intensive attention and debate. We may have been arguing about sexuality and gender for ages, but our arguments still have much deeper to go.” I mention this to give some perspective to PLF. It is not the abject failure some – on either side of the discussion –… Read more »
Martin Hughes
18 days ago
The idea of marriage without the assumption of sex is fairly historic – remarks like ‘consensus non concubitus facit matrimonium’ are to be found in the Digest of Roman Law. In looking for the origins of this principle I found an interesting discussion by Bishop Pierre Whalon on the history of marriage. He points out that as soon as Christians began to believe that Mary had always abstained from sex they needed to agree with this thread in Roman law, because the legitimacy of Jesus and of the claims that he was legitimately King of the Jews might otherwise be… Read more »
Two quick thoughts arising from Peter’s piece from somebody who has actually been through it all – a same sex “blessing and covenant service” in 2001, civil partnership in 2006, and a same sex civil marriage in 2016. Because we could not use a marriage service in 2001 we were forced back on our own resources. We had to ask ourselves what we wanted to say to each other, and what we wanted the service to achieve. We came up with making covenantal promises to each other but (agreeing with Jane Charman’s “generative”) it was necessary the covenant making be… Read more »
Simon, I wish there was a ‘like’ button. Especially your last paragraph; I could not agree more.
Interesting that you seem to have felt the power of both approaches – writing your own vows, and also using the traditional wording. I need to sit with that one for a while and see what it has to say to me. Thank you.
Thanks Tim. There is quite a lot of nuisance in this. It is trying to analyse my emotions so any response is a best guess. But perhaps what I am trying to say is that the “home made” vows worked because they exactly matched our view of our relationship, and the feedback from our friends was that the marriage on offer to them ( as much what happened outside the church as inside) did not match in the same way for them. There was less power in it, and sometimes some resentment about that. As for the marriage and the… Read more »
Quick question about your journey, and Peter’s comment about the emotional side – given that you have had a ‘blessing and covenant’ service, a civil partnership, and a same-sex civil marriage, would you like a church marriage or blessing? If you had to start the processes from today, given current church and secular policies, what would you wish for? A civil same-sex marriage followed by a church blessing? What would the church blessing look like? What would the importance be to you of a church blessing? I assume that ideally you would want a change in church policies, and would… Read more »
Primarily, I would like the church to have the courage to update its teaching on marriage to match the lives and needs of couples living in the 21st century. That is key.
If it does that properly, and has the courage to let go of Augustine’s hand, then the necessary equality between gay and straight should be taken care of.
I am neutral about a church marriage, or a secular registration followed by church service as they do in parts of Europe, as long as the same route is followed by all.
Only in your view it would be wrong. It is of no concern to me what vows people wish to make to one another. It is not my business to have a view.
Bring it into my church and I certainly do have a view.
Let society deal with marriage for all. Let the church follow a path that upholds the faith received and passed down through generations.
Robert Williams
3 days ago
Why is it always same sex marriage..when divorce and remarriage are also threatening traditional marriage.Its a free for all…even in the ACNA, the Reach in South Africa and Sydney.
I thought Peter Collier’s article was illuminating and positive regarding a way forward. However, I am still trying to unravel all the negatives in this paragraph: “In those circumstances, and having regard to the absence of any reference to, let alone requirement for, sexual intimacy in a same-sex marriage, and having said that entering a civil partnership is not of itself inconsistent with leading an exemplary life, it seems to me that there is no good reason why the Bishops should not say that entering into such a “marriage” is also not in and of itself an ecclesiastical offence.” There… Read more »
This legal argument is really beside the point. Sex may not be assumed to be part of marriage but if married couples desire and experience sexual intimacy with each other that activity is pronounced by the Church to be blessed, perhaps with the proviso that some forms of intimacy – those that involve choking, perhaps – are subject to specific moral objection.The ‘traditionalist’ belief is that gay sex can’t take any form not subject to specific moral objection, so there can no pronouncement or even substantial hint that any gay union is offered any kind or degree of affirmation which… Read more »
In his further critique of the FAOC papers, Peter Collier comments: ‘The advice from FAOC seems to me to be provided almost as if we believe that the Church is shaping the law of marriage for England and Wales, as it did in the 18th century. It is very much speaking within its own bubble.’ I went back to one of FAOC’s first productions in 2013 – GS1046: ‘Men and women in marriage’. As the TA archive shows it too was heavily criticised and on similar grounds — for its lack of engagement with the development of marriage through history. Commenting… Read more »
In the same book, Mike Higton reminds us that marriage is a gift we are still receiving, ending: “Despite the length and volume of the arguments about marriage and sexuality in my Church, these questions, about the demands of Christian holiness in the realm of gender, are ones that demand much more intensive attention and debate. We may have been arguing about sexuality and gender for ages, but our arguments still have much deeper to go.” I mention this to give some perspective to PLF. It is not the abject failure some – on either side of the discussion –… Read more »
The idea of marriage without the assumption of sex is fairly historic – remarks like ‘consensus non concubitus facit matrimonium’ are to be found in the Digest of Roman Law. In looking for the origins of this principle I found an interesting discussion by Bishop Pierre Whalon on the history of marriage. He points out that as soon as Christians began to believe that Mary had always abstained from sex they needed to agree with this thread in Roman law, because the legitimacy of Jesus and of the claims that he was legitimately King of the Jews might otherwise be… Read more »
Two quick thoughts arising from Peter’s piece from somebody who has actually been through it all – a same sex “blessing and covenant service” in 2001, civil partnership in 2006, and a same sex civil marriage in 2016. Because we could not use a marriage service in 2001 we were forced back on our own resources. We had to ask ourselves what we wanted to say to each other, and what we wanted the service to achieve. We came up with making covenantal promises to each other but (agreeing with Jane Charman’s “generative”) it was necessary the covenant making be… Read more »
Simon, I wish there was a ‘like’ button. Especially your last paragraph; I could not agree more.
Interesting that you seem to have felt the power of both approaches – writing your own vows, and also using the traditional wording. I need to sit with that one for a while and see what it has to say to me. Thank you.
Thanks Tim. There is quite a lot of nuisance in this. It is trying to analyse my emotions so any response is a best guess. But perhaps what I am trying to say is that the “home made” vows worked because they exactly matched our view of our relationship, and the feedback from our friends was that the marriage on offer to them ( as much what happened outside the church as inside) did not match in the same way for them. There was less power in it, and sometimes some resentment about that. As for the marriage and the… Read more »
Sorry – for nuisance read nuance – autocorrect got in the way
Quick question about your journey, and Peter’s comment about the emotional side – given that you have had a ‘blessing and covenant’ service, a civil partnership, and a same-sex civil marriage, would you like a church marriage or blessing? If you had to start the processes from today, given current church and secular policies, what would you wish for? A civil same-sex marriage followed by a church blessing? What would the church blessing look like? What would the importance be to you of a church blessing? I assume that ideally you would want a change in church policies, and would… Read more »
Good question Nigel. Thank you.
Primarily, I would like the church to have the courage to update its teaching on marriage to match the lives and needs of couples living in the 21st century. That is key.
If it does that properly, and has the courage to let go of Augustine’s hand, then the necessary equality between gay and straight should be taken care of.
I am neutral about a church marriage, or a secular registration followed by church service as they do in parts of Europe, as long as the same route is followed by all.
Only in your view it would be wrong. It is of no concern to me what vows people wish to make to one another. It is not my business to have a view.
Bring it into my church and I certainly do have a view.
Let society deal with marriage for all. Let the church follow a path that upholds the faith received and passed down through generations.
Why is it always same sex marriage..when divorce and remarriage are also threatening traditional marriage.Its a free for all…even in the ACNA, the Reach in South Africa and Sydney.