The following observations on T19 may interest:

http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=19196 (#60)

"It is a waste of time trying to debate with people on ‘THINKING ANGLICANS’ (what a smug name!) because the Webmeister, Simon Sarmiento, exercises very tight control on it, effectively censoring most dissent from the liberal POV. Which is his prerogative. You can post a comment, wait a day to be ‘approved’, and find it’s been rejected. In other words, it doesn’t really function like a blog, but like an old style politically aligned newspaper, with strict editorial control promting a party line. Very British, really.

"What a contrast with T19, where comments - including those from Simon Sarmiento and TA contributors - appear immediately. Only ‘naughty’ words get you filtered.

"The other things I notice about TA:
1. The same eight names recur endlessly (they obviously have no trouble being ‘approved by the management’).
2. There is a disproportionate number of gays and lesbians among them.
3. Some of the most frequent (not to mention, gnomic and cryptic) of the contributors (Goran Koch-Swahne and ‘MerseyMike’, well known here) are not Anglican or even Christian.

"No blog is perfect, and T19 is far from that, but it’s a darn sight freer and better - and more ANGLICAN - than the news service across the water."

" Marie Pinney ...grew up Baptist and worships at Truro. "I feel so much more in line with Archbishop Akinola. There are hardly any bishops in the Episcopal Church that I'd even want my children in Sunday school with."

Perhaps she'd have been more at home had she stuck with Baptist worship rather than getting involved in a hostile buy-out of Anglicanism. And tho' her child may chime in well with ++Abuja now, I hope s/he doesn't grow up gay....

T19 make it a practice to quarantine liberal postings, and to erase them. Hence the uninstructive monotony of its comboxes.

Exsqueeze me, Lapin, but why are we supposed to care about "Comment #60" on T19? Some blogs have delayed (moderated) posting, some don't: this one does. Big Whoop.

[I suppose if I'm one of the "same eight names (that) recur endlessly", anything I say will be instantly discounted thereby anyway! (not to mention that I am of the "disproportionate number of gays and lesbians" *LOL*) Oh well...]

*****

Just another day in the life of Big Pete: ignore ABC, slink in, commit schism, slink out...

Where have all the CANAites gone? On 12/21/2006, Virtue on Line reported that the 11 Virginia parishes that had joined CANA boasted 9,900 members and an average Sunday attendance of just over 5,700. As of yesterday, the Washington Times – which tends to accept CANA claims at face value – reported that CANA has 34 parishes – a third of them ethnically Nigerian – but only 7,000 members, with an average Sunday attendance of about 6,000 (“larger than that of 50 Episcopal dioceses”). And one of the new parishes – Grace and St. Stephen’s – claimed 2,000 members all by itself. Assuming the other 22 parishes had 80 members each (the Episcopal Church’s average size), we get 9,900 Virginians + 2,000 Coloradans + 1,760 others = 13,660 initial CANA members. Of course, to draw any conclusions from the apparent 48% decline in membership over the past four months as to the future viability of CANA would be an impermissible appeal to Experience rather than Scripture.

The Sunday Richmond Times Dispatch, a pretty conservative and generally accurate paper, reported this morning that there were about 1000 present yesterday [as did the Washington Times], but added that about 1/3 of them appeared to be Nigerians.

Of those who were reported to have abandoned TEC [but not its property] in N Va, that seems like a rather sparse turnout.

Heavens, these comments are censored? Considering what DOES get through from the "other side" I shudder to think what you're NOT approving. Maybe their comments tend to be more than 400 words, yes that must be it.

I thought one could do whatever one liked with one's own blog. I didn't realize there were sacred Laws of Bloggery in place.

I also thought that the comments are fairly secondary, the real meat of this blog are the links to news & opinion items which do not always reflect "the liberal POV" by any means. Keep up the good work.

Disproportionately Gay Brian

lapinbizzare

Thanks for sharing that feedback, I found it interesting.

Personally, I have found TA to be very fair. Simon consistently applies the 400-word limit. There were a number of times after the limit was introduced that I presumed my postings were within the limit, only to find them in my return email with a note that they were over the limit. But then I do give Simon a return email address to send them. The nice thing is that I can then decide whether the posting is still relevant and if so, prune it. My only regret is that some of my postings now seem blunt and arrogant, because the two or three explanations to justify a position have to be removed for editorial reasons.

Having had to shut down my own forum on www.wombatwonderings.org due to "flooding", mainly by "bots"; Simon might also had to deal with this.

I have also seen on other forums that there are a group of conservatives whose role is to denigrate, misconstrue, exaggerate or simply red herring more liberal contributors. One forum I simply left in a hissy fit - throwing Proverbs 8 & 9 about Wisdom versus folly and Habbakuk 1:4 at them on the way out.

Another forum I was locked out by the administrator because I wrote about prophecy and the fight against good and evil. I would only be reinstated if I undertook to not take on these tangents. Which was absurd, because that is what God commissioned me to do.

The other thing that some people don't like about TA is they can't edit away their faux pas. Yet that is one of the things that I love about TA.

If certain elements can not control a certain space, they declare it evil and blacklist it. When God is moving, that is good news. Others come to see why it has been blacklisted, because they hate the people who blacklist. There is a hit song in Australia at the moment which has a phrase similar to "How can I disagree with you when you keep making sense?" My suggestion is we keep doing our best, God will decide what of our postings should be rippled into other environments.

I have always had good experiences blogging on TA, except one time when I exceeded the 400-word limit. On T 1:9 I have been in rouble with the elves any time I locked horns with Sarah hey, hey -- infallible as she is. Recently, she stated on T 1:9 that she is ready to leave TEC or any Anglican entity unless they act FAST to disassociate themselves with GC 2003 and 2006. "Her way or the highway!"

mynsterpreost, the quote from Mme. Pinney sums up the whole thing very nicely, doesn't it?

More than any other cause, even more than foreign prelates with an eye for good real estate, our troubles in the U.S. have been caused by converts from low church Protestant sects who seek, the moment they are in the door, to remake their new church in the image of their old one.

I have seen it over and over.

Does anyone else remember the Washington Post article that revealed that more than 60% of the attendees at Truro and Falls Church were not even Episcopalians? (They were still allowed to vote to leave TEC, though. I guess it's easy to leave a church that one never even joined in the first place.)

A response received to an inquiry at another site indicates that the C of E clergyman attending the Virginia installation was Dave Banting, presumably David Banting, chairman of Reform.

JPM: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/03/AR2007010301952.html

mynsterpost and JPM,

I'm confused by your reactions to Marie Pinney. Most Christians rejoice at drawing people into their churches and perhaps touching their lives for Christ in new ways. Who cares where they come from? If people want to engage in our faith community, God bless them. And get used to "converts from low church Protestant sects." Those churches are losing many, many people to charismatic churches and high-church denominations. There will be many more Marie Pinney's to come.

These attitudes sound far from what the sign out front claims our churches are about.

JPM: I agree with you basically, but I must say that I left the Baptist church in which I was reared when I was 21 many years ago and became an Episcopalian. I fell in love with the Episcopal Church and gladly accepted all of it. Now, I too see people from other traditions coming into the Episcopal Church and trying to change it to suit them. What I rejected so many years ago, is, in many places, common practice in the Episcopal Church. Sad.

" ... the real meat of this blog are the links to news & opinion items which do not always reflect "the liberal POV" by any means. Keep up the good work."

YES! I have commended this site to many others for exactly that reason - the posting of full texts of letters, communiques, documements, news stories, opinion columns, blogs - and the general civility of comment - although I have sometimes not censored my own sarcasm.

If you want to know about bigotted censorship and biased treatment try posting something on virtue online and see what kind of reaction you get. Frankly, I'm more than impressed by the quality of discourse at TA. I would have disapeared from Anglican circles a long time ago if I had nothing but t19 and vol to read.

And for that matter, someone needs to give a well deserved round of appause to Jim Naughton for uncovering the wing-nut connivances that they've pulled. Keep TA just like it is.

So Akinola kept a low profile all weekend. What? I guess he thought no one would notice he was there. -So as to not offend, no doubt.

But at least the papers have put it out there in black and white that CANA is out to replace TEC and Akinola is at the helm. It is profoundly schismatic and in your face. Low profile or not, he will not be able to escape the consequences. I just hope the ABC has been made aware that the whole world now knows what Akinola is up to and he doesn't mind showing up the ABC to do it.

Can anyone understand why the Rowan Williams appears not to have sent his letter to Akinola before he left Nigeria? He must have known that Akinola was unlikely to cave in, but there could be no hope of any softening by the time he'd already reached the USA. A letter just for public effect?

I note that Ephraim Radner is in trouble again.

Dr Radner may be a reasonable theologian, but his choice of bed-fellows continues to plague him.

The fulsome support the IRD has now offered for CANA stands in stark contrast to his own declared views. Will he now resign his membership of the IRD board?

Having lost the financial support of Grace Church through Donald Armstrong’s behaviour, it would seem inevitable he will now have to loose the potential support of the IRD through theirs.

I feel a Lady Bracknell quote on “carelessness” coming on ………

The IRD support of CANA can be found here:
http://www.ird-renew.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=390529&ct=3840661

Dr Radner's latest essay is here:
http://anglicancommunioninstitute.com/content/view/82/1/

Lapin:
as you predicted, T19 is unhappy with our discussion of the liminalities of the A/S heptarchy, though I cannot think why, given that so much space is given over to discussions about boundary-hopping:-) .

Chris, the problem is not converts--I am one myself--but, as I thought I said very clearly, converts "who seek, the moment they are in the door, to remake their new church in the image of their old one."

Jimmy gets it. When I became an Episcopalian, twenty-two years ago, I also embraced my new church. I am a *former* fundamentalist who is *now* Episcopalian.

Mary Pinney, however, is *still* a Baptist.

"Can anyone understand why the Rowan Williams appears not to have sent his letter to Akinola before he left Nigeria?"

No one outside of Lambeth knows when the letter was sent. JKS's letter was released publicly in a press release. We don't know when William's letter was sent, but sending it privately meant Akinola could deny having received it. In all likelihood, it was intercepted by someone on his staff so that he could say he had never seen it.

The pattern of groups breaking away from the Episcopal Church has been pretty consistent since the nineteenth century. All they seem to have in common -- and as a source of institutional identity -- is opposition to the Episcopal Church. Once they step outside that institutional structure, they have little on which to ground an identity and suddenly they discover all their internal differences.

The result is fragmentation and marginality. We saw this after GC 1979 among groups opposed to the ordination of women and the '79 BCP. We are seeing it again. Now we have AMiA and CANA and the Network and the "Windsor Bishops," all going in different directions, with different claims to authority and different sets of grievances and complaints.

What we see here is the development of incipient congregationalism in the Anglican Communion and its aftermath. The irony is that the current groups claim authority as "traditional" Anglicans while most have given up use of BCP at their main services in favor of Prayer and Praise services.

Erika - All this talk about whether or not Akinola got the ABC's letter in time not to come is an attempt to shift the focus. It is absurd to think that the ABC merely popped a letter into snail mail "late last week" and left it at that thinking he'd get in time before his trip. I'm sure the contents of the letter were communicated to Akinola the day it was sent. The questions that have merit are where was Akinola last week, when did he leave Nigeria, and why was his coming publicized so late? The answers to these questions peobably would reveal that Akinola managed his visit in such a way as to keep the response to a minimum.

It wasn't until less than 10 days before the event that KJS became aware that Akinola was coming. The same could be said for the ABC. KJS sent her letter on April 30th (two days after learning of his visit), Bishop Lee sent his letter on May 2nd, the same day that Akinola responded to to KJS letter.

We don't know what day the ABC sent his letter, but it makes not difference because Akinloa has chosen not to acknowledge receipt of any of the letters, only that he has been made "aware" of KJS letter. That's all part of the strategy to manage public opinion.

The truth is the only way a letter from the ABC would have changed anything is if it came well in advance of the trip and was made public. Then there would have been time for an outcry from other conservatives who do not support the visit and other Primates as well. But the trip was orchestrated to avoid that.

He's playing a game. Keep a low profile, catch them by surprise, do exactly as you want.

Ephraim Radner has not made an argument that the localist and confessionalist ae incompatible, only if a Church is only confessionalist in an absolute sense. A local Church has to be a confession of something, after all.

His argument is all pro-communion, whereas this is contradicted elsewhere. The Roman Communion is a Church, and indeed any Orthodox Communion is indeed via autocephaly - autonomy by any other name and relationships from below in actual institutions. When there are ecumenical agreements of sharing resources and ministry, no one talks particularly of a Communion. The Communion in Anglican terms is a loose gathering designed not to threaten the autonomy of the actual Churches. In Christianity it is the Church that counts, sometimes with bishops, sometimes more presbyterian, sometimes congregationalist.

The Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) is not a disparate gathering of parts. No doubt Akinola will give his American leaders some leeway in decision making, but this is a Church. Such a Communion is within its own structure.

Rather than Anglicanism being a school for Communion, it is a means through its Churches of making considered and consulted changes, changes that can be satisfactory in one place whilst not, or not yet, in another. Changes made in one place can "catch on" in another place, usually through some sort of language of the working of the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Communion exists and is left to exist at a more heavenly level. It is a pluriform view of change and stability.

This is far from creating an international Rule, which is just an argument for an international level of control. There is no international Abbot, except in the mystical sense.

In the end, a Rule, and Abbot and a Covenant are all attempts to be restrictive from the top. This is what Ephraim Radner is trying to achieve through a mass of continuing words and creative arguments.

David. Some guy going by the name "Gordian" was going on about our T19 conversation earlier this morning and I responded sharply. His post was pulled, by him I suppose, almost as soon as I replied, which left my reply looking pointless. I was flagged, but seemed they were letting it stand. I asked them to remove it, however, since cause it makes no sense without the lead in of the Gordian Whine. Assume it's gone now. That was one individual, not at T19 thing. Is it kosher to ask Simon if he would forward one's email address to another? I don't want to post it for common consumption, particularly after the Grace Church folk were making such a to-do about it two weeks back, but it would make sense to conduct this correspondence directly, rather than through the media of T19 & TA. Roger

Isn't it amazing how assertions of support for emperilled religious freedoms can lead some so easily astray? Such statements, for some, enable them to ignore that this organization is actually about curtailling any kind of religious freedom, especially as it manifests as dissent from the party line of the current US administration. People are able to ignore the sources of funding of this organization, as well as the offensive idea that an organization with ties to government should have any say in the "reorganization" of Churches, which "reorganization" seems to be based solely on the idea that the members of this organization feel it is necessary. How appalling that they should have on their website list of the "actions" they are involved with in particuloar Churches. It is not the correctness of the position that is at issue, but whether a quasi-governemtalorganization should have any say at all in the Church'sresponse.Who do these peoplethink they are? But then, I'm an Anglo-catholic.

"I'm sure the contents of the letter were communicated to Akinola the day it was sent."

There's a reply from Akinola to Williams on T19 in which Akinola says he "didn't see the letter until after the ceremony" which is consistant with my speculation that someone on his staff intercepted it so that he could plausibly deny having seen it. http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=19225

"I'm sure the contents of the letter were communicated to Akinola the day it was sent."

There's a reply from Akinola to Williams on T19 in which Akinola says he "didn't see the letter until after the ceremony" which is consistant with my speculation that someone on his staff intercepted it so that he could plausibly deny having seen it. http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=19225

OOOPS! That last comment was in response to Simon's post about IRD and CANA.

"More than any other cause, even more than foreign prelates with an eye for good real estate, our troubles in the U.S. have been caused by converts from low church Protestant sects who seek, the moment they are in the door, to remake their new church in the image of their old one."

I certainly can vouch for this quote.

As for Ms. Pinney's statement, I wonder would she allow her children in the room with a down syndrome homosexual? or an autistic child, or a child with terrets (who just might swear over and over/part of the condition, uncontrollable outburts)? You can only hide children for so long and then they discover the world you've carefully shielded them from, and in many cases failed to prepare them for.

Maybe she wouldn't want her children around sinners? Maybe Pinney doesn't have any (sins that is)?

Below is an article in the April 8 newsletter of my former church in Woodbridge (now a member of CANA). Obviously, some people were aware that Akinola was coming. In fact, this church was to hold an invitation only reception for him following the installation. Once I had read this on April 8, I wondered why it took so long for the news to show up on the blogs:

"Worship at St. Margaret’s
Creating opportunities to
encounter the Living God
Bishop Minn’s Installation
On Saturday, May 5, the growing fellowship of
churches in the Convocation of Anglicans in North
America will gather at the Hylton Chapel, starting at
12:30 (with the procession to begin at 1 pm) for a
grand celebration of the work of Christ and the installation
of our Bishop, Martyn Minns. Peter Akinola,
the primate of the Anglican Church of Nigeria
is scheduled be the chief celebrant of this festival
Eucharist. Please put this special event on your calendar
and join us in celebration of our new ministry
together as Anglicans."

Lapin - if Simon feels it appropriate to pass on my email, that's fine. I'd direct you to my parish website (stmarysbarton.org.uk), but the email for me there's not working - tho' you could email the webmaster and ask him to forward it.
regards,
D
who has spent a blissful day at the reopening of St Peter's AS church....

Chris;
it is indeed the case that the trad. low/protestant denominations are having problems with membership retention, and that we do see people from such backgrounds entering Anglicanism. And we should welcome the gifts and insights which such Christians have to bring - however, there comes a point when this can destroy the very thing which attracted them into their new denomination, and all they end up with is a pale imitation of what they had left.

If someone wants the Anglican Church only to espouse baptist/presbyterian ecclesiology or theology, why on earth have they joined in the first place? Isn't their contribution to Anglicanism something to do with bringing those insights in to enrich without obliterating everything else? The wish to turn the Anglican church into a Southern Baptist clone isn't encounter, it's entryism.

Mynsterpreost
"If someone wants the Anglican Church only to espouse baptist/presbyterian ecclesiology or theology, why on earth have they joined in the first place?"

As an original Lutheran Protestant, I joined the Anglican church because it happened to be the main church in my village, and I do believe very strongly that church is first and foremost about community.

It took me a long time to discover what was distinctly Anglican about it, what was just idiosyncratic of this particular village, and what was idiosyncratic of the particular priest.

There were many things of my old church I valued and which I recommended to others. Not knowing whether they were typically Lutheran Protestant, typically my old village, or typically my old priest.

I wouldn't get all that "wrong" these days. But people are generally on a journey and make amazing discoveries throughout... generally those that are already commonplace to those around them.

Diane Hanson - Was that Newsletter posted on a website or only sent to congregant's homes either by email or snail mail. I suspect that many within CANA and ACN knew, but it was not publicized to the broader AC until a couple weeks ago. IT certainly was not on the Church of Nigeria website. Or the website of CANA before then.

mynsterpreost. The guy who went for us at T19 this morning is the author of the post that I quoted above - the first item on this page ["'Thinking Anglicans' (what a smug name)"]. He was probably already loaded for bear after my response on T19 to the "smug" post. Maybe took the term "site-specific groupie" personally, which it was not. Am going to try your web-page. "This correspondence is closed."

WRT the T1:9 comments on Simon & TA:

"What a contrast with T19, where comments - including those from Simon Sarmiento and TA contributors - appear immediately."

Oh come now. It's common knowledge that T1:9 goes through comments from "liberals" from time to time and removes them.

"(Goran Koch-Swahne and ‘MerseyMike’, well known here) are not Anglican or even Christian."

Hey, lookit that! the Rev. Koch-Swahne isn't a Christian! Could of fooled me... ;)

"There is a disproportionate number of gays and lesbians among them."

Gasp! Oh the humanity! (/me faints away in a melodramatic, Scarlett O'Hara fashion)

"If someone wants the Anglican Church only to espouse baptist/presbyterian ecclesiology or theology, why on earth have they joined in the first place?"

Did I miss something? Where did ++Akinola or +Minns espouse anything other than Anglican theology (39 Articles & BCP)???

Mynsterpreost. I'm a bit slow and only just realized that your reference to "the reopening of St Peter's AS church...." seems to indicate that the Saxon church at Barton-on-Humber (a church of major architectural importance,folks) is in regular use again? Some good news around here for a change.

Does your internet "handle" repeat the job description of a predecessor?

mynsterpreost,

I don't think your analysis holds w/ the CANA parishes. Yes, a majority of TFC parishioners are not confirmed, but it is a distinctly Anglican church. Rev Yates has been rector for over 26 years and during the 5 years I attended there was at least one CofE clergy on staff. Additionally, TFC has active relationships with Anglican churches around the world. I'm less familiar with Truro, but people I know who attend and insights we get from sources such as BabyBlue reveal an Anglican heritage as well.

These are not Episcopal/Anglican Churches that have been diluted by new members. Rather the new members from other traditions have accepted Anglicanism's diverse forms of worship and the reformation theology these churches have held for many years. Most have not been confirmed in the Episcopal Church (I'll let you figure our why), but have done the Discovery classes and transferred membership letters to their new parish.

It’s not entryism – it’s that diversity of expression many reappraisers use as a justification for their views.

Wyclif

I believe that most of us liberals have expouse the same. We hold the Creeds, etc... to all be valid. When did we stop being Episcopalian?
Don't answer that! Because many have decided to welcome Gay and Lesbian members into Christ's community we're not Anglicans?

I can't partake of T19 or VOL (and Matt Kennedy's Stand Firm). Most of the post are reaffirmations of negative thinking.

This may be by the way, but what did my Lord of Abuja actually DO in Virginia? Am I right in reading "installation"to mean "enthronement"? Now, I assume +Minns has no cathedral church as yet, hence the gathering being held in a "nondenominational" "worship centre", but was there a cathedra? You see, for some who may not see my point, the enthronement of a bishop by his metropolitan is a symbolic act meaning that, the clergy and people of the diocese having discerned the will of the Spirit in the selection of their bishop, the wider Church concurs and symbolically puts him on the throne, the cathedra, that symbolizes his authority in his diocese. It could, I believe, be done by any representative of the metropolitan of the ecclesiastical province. So, if +Martin has no cathedra as yet, much less a cathedral church in which to put it, what was the symbolic meaning of +Peter's trip to Virginia?

Wyclif. The quote refers neither to ++Abuja nor to sort-of-+ Minns, but to an individual in CANA who appears to have joined TEC with no will to learn from TEC's tradition, but rather expecting it to conform entirely to her (apparently) Baptist presuppositions. So far as I am aware the Baptists do not espouse the 39 articles or the BCP....

Alas, English Heritage have but improved its interpretative matrix for the building, etc etc. But it is still licensed for worship, and (subject to EH's whims) is used a couple of times a year. Currently we're waiting on the remains of 3000 Bartonians to return, dating from C9to C19 (a fragment of one of whose coffins graces my study - I hope they don't want it back) - THEN we're planning a full blown requiem mass on the site of the Saxon altar, candles, smoke, the lot (English Heritage willing). Probably 1549 with additions in Latin and the Language of Heaven, OE.

And, yes, St. Peter's may have been an AS Minster. Chad's monastery 'ad bearum', 'aet bearuwe'' may have been across the path from here. It's a sobering thing to see a photograph of one of one's predecessors... on the back page of the guide to the building, encoffined and clutching his mortuary chalice (which I saw in the flesh, so to speak, yesterday).

Correspondence on this one will continue elsewhere so as not to annoy folks by being a little off-topic....

What are the ramifications of having two apostolic successions for Anglicans in the United States? theologically and/or practically? thoughts...?

Justin. Depends who you've got in it. If you can pack your succession with Old Catholics and Swedish Lutherans (like the one, known to this page, rumoured the other day on T19 to be "atheist") then one day, with luck, a Bishop of Rome may recognise your validity. I do not get the feel that the Sacrifice of the Mass (capitals called for, I suppose) or even the Real Presence play big in CANA circles. Besides, a variety of schismatic but more or less valid Anglican successions already exists in North America. CANA adds one more ingredient to this stew.

Imagine the consequences had the internet and air travel (presumably the "huge distances ... travelled at great risk", referred to in Akinola's letter to the ABC) been around for the Hampden Controversy, Tract 90, or Ritualism.

Chris, I don't quite follow you. Are you saying that these folks have enlisted with the Anglican expression of Christianity and accepted its breadth of theology and worship? If they have done this, their wish to abandon the broad Anglicanism of TEC seems at odds with it.

Therefore it sounds more to me like someone who enters the Anglican set-up and then, discovering that it is not a community of the doctrinally cloned, wants to build a brick wall between her and those who might challenge her own presuppositions. (Whether it's to keep them out or her in I couldn't say)

I don't see what's 'reappraisionist' about such an observation.

Two apostolic successions for Anglicans in the US? We've got two in this deanery....

http://www.aicuk.org.uk/Peachey.php

I believe his promotion to archbishop is pending. The archiepiscopal palace is next to the sawmill in Barnetby-le-wold, details of how to gat ordained are downloadable from the website.

"Reappraiser" "reapprasionist" are terms which the "reaffirmer" (their term) crowd stick to virtually anyone who does not conform absolutely to their agenda. Set up a straw man, embodying the "evils" of your opponents; give it a name ("reappraiser"), abd set to howling that name, "four legs good, two legs bad"-wise, whenever you feel that you are being opposed. As a tactic, it's straight out of Lenin & Stalin ("right-wing deviationism", etc. ) and Mao. Far simpler than reasoned argument - particularly when reasoned argument is not an option.

The gentleman whose URL Mynsterpreost has posted above has added a completely new term and concept to my ecclesiastical vocabulary - "co-consecrators in absentia". An expression to savour and treasure. Anyone here present encountered this one before? What, one wonders, are the ground rules for valid consecration in absentia? Bit like the centurion's "servant", maybe? - let's not wander onto that particular topic again this soon.

Hey Mynsterpreost (=David Rowett), what about the guy over the river in Hessle?

http://www.holy-catholic.org/

In addition to its Arian Catholicism (nice idea) there is something about Jesus doing his Duke of Edinburgh award in England or something similar during his trip abroad sometime after he was twelve.

As Monty Python says, "This is getting very silly."

"Jesus doing his Duke of Edinburgh award in England"

'And did those feet.........'

In somerset they say the dark satanic mills are Shepton Mallett, where 'Babycham' (note for non-brits, a singuylarly unpleasant alcoholic drink) is synthesised.

the ground rules for valid consecration in absentia?

Ah,, like the story of the Red Hand of Ulster - the bishop lops off a hand and sends it in a padded envelope.....

Found it. This is the other chap of independent Anglican ordination etc. (Anglican Catholic Church) that hails from Barton-upon-Humber. It must be something in the water.

The more serious point is this. If I was running CANA, one thing I'd be trying to do (perhaps they are) is trying to claw such people as the above in.

It seems to me that the important thing is whether this surplus of clerics have congregations, ones that develop and sustain and have a relationship with them. Some of these ordinations look like dressing up parties for old men and various oddities. I've nothing against strange people, as I am one on a number of counts, but the important thing is that there is ministry going on - and both from the cleric and among the gathered.

At present, the people out on these far fringes are somewhat adrift and cut off with and without congregations. But if Akinola carries on, and if there does emerge one Covenant, and then two or three, a potential outcome is that there will be different Anglicanisms and connections to the Archbishop of Canterbury will become fairly meaningless (and possibly by different routes where they exist).

My own view is that different Anglicanisms is not something to worry about too much, and may be part of the sorting out that is going on, one with ecumenical potential as well as schismatic.

Bishop Peachey (kin to "The Man Who Would Be King"?) notes that his "immediate family are church bell ringers and he has an active co-operation with the Church of England in this respect". Have to have, I imagine - opportunity for non-Anglican change-ringing has to be thin on the ground in N. Lincs. Or are we talking the abomination of hand bells?

Please, is this page (http://www.aicuk.org.uk/Peachey.php) real?

"co-consecrators in absentia"
The Consevos have homos as their litmus test of "orthodoxy". May I suggest this as ours? If anyone cannot, reflexly, point out what is wrong with this statement, they are not suitably pure and we are not in communion with them.

"the ground rules for valid consecration in absentia"

I was told a story years ago about some bishops in the Coptic church who were unable to attend an episcopal consecration in Egypt because the Nile was in spate. So they all breathed into a pig's bladder (the form of ordination being insufflation) and the bladder was sent by boat down the river, to be uncorked over the candidates. Sadly, en route it burst, thus consecrating a couple of goats as bishops in the church. I think we can all make guesses about which sees they ended up in...

PS - David, don't be rude about Shepton Mallet. When I learned to drive, at theological college, I used to have to go there (from Wells) to practise traffic lights.

Lapin; the page is genuine. He's a nice enough bloke who offered for Anglican ministry about ten years ago but has since found a fast track!

It will be interesting under CANA to see whether vocational structures evolve which have something in common with the Anglican Independent Church plc - that is, a ministry composed largely of single-issue clergy.

(His relations campanological with the diocese are uncertain, but he has a loyal following locally (but not in Barton, where mention of the good bishop's name brings our tower captain out in a rash). He'd like to get into Barton's towers - not many towns this size have two good rings of eight!)

Cryptogram,
If you came to Shepton Mallet now you could practice traffic lights and lots of speed cameras!
But you'd find many more traffic lights in Wells itself.

Mynster,
Showerings still produce the awful Babycham but also some pretty good cider! Forgive them?

As for feet in ancient time, they walked straight to Glastonbury Abbey where the Holy Thorn now competes with King Arthur's tomb for tourists. Worth a visit!

The hymn Jerusalem has to be set to new music when, just as other hymns have allellulia after each line, Jerusalem has "No" added after each sung question.

Anyway, it's time we had some serious theological study, as below, seeing as Lapinbizarre and Erika Baker make some comments about the religion of this strange Humber part of the world:

http://arian-catholic.org/arian/christinbritain.html

_As Jesus’ great uncle, Joseph became Jesus’ Guardian (by Law, as next of kin) when Mary’s husband Joseph died early in Jesus’ life. He took Jesus with him on his journeys to Glastonbury, England._

So now we know.

mynsterpreost: "(His relations campanological with the diocese are uncertain, but he has a loyal following locally (but not in Barton, where mention of the good bishop's name brings our tower captain out in a rash). He'd like to get into Barton's towers - not many towns this size have two good rings of eight!)"

Glad to see change ringing is still the rage over there. Two sets of an octave of bells, that is impressive. Dorothy Sayers would be proud.

Pluralist,
you don't need obscure arian-catholic websites to know that Joseph of Arimathea brought Jesus to Glastonbury. The staff he stuck in the ground of this ancient pagan site of worship began to grow and its decendants still flower twice a year - at Christmas and at Easter.
The Queen is presented with a flowering branch on every Christmas Day morning.

More quirky truths from Glastonbury can be obtained from my partner who happens to be Education Officer there:-)

...and, as a warning to all Puritans, I believe the Cromwellian trooper who hacked the original Holy Thorn to the ground chopped his own leg off while doing so....

Oh, I didn't know about the chopped off leg! Scary scary.... for more ghostly tit bits see here:

http://home.epix.net/~maywrite/thorn05.htm

"Two sets of an octave of bells, that is impressive."

And as they rang in the (so-called) millennienniennium at St. Peter's, it was observed that this was one of the few surviving towers from which the old millennium might have been rung in.

I believe there were people predicting the end of all things then as well.

Pluralist, re the photographs of "dressing up parties for old men and various oddities", on what occasions is the cope correctly worn over the chasuble? New one on me, but not to say that it might not, on occasion, be correct. The prostration during consecration scans remind me of the joke read somewhere (on this site?) recently, of the child attending an RC consecration with his father and asking why the bishops-to-be were lying flat on their faces. "This, my boy", his father said. "is where they take out their spines".

12 May it is the end of Willow Celtic Tree month, so I'll have to get my green and gold gown out in the spirit of Humber fast track religion. I admit to my own taking a wedding here in New Holland, 4 direct miles from Barton, on the green. It was my wife's first full day here as an intended permanent resident here in Britain and she has been puzzled ever since. Everyone came either in Goth dress or fancy dress, the best man as Henry VIII (I think he was) and there was a whole crowd listening in.

Now I am, er, become more regular, attending Mynsterpreost's outfit.

I am looking out on a scion of the Glastonbury thorn as I type this. It is currently in flower. There are no spare legs lying around, but it is well fertilised by the ashes of a bishop burned 20 metres away in Marian times.

Incidentally, Mynsterpreost, we had a 1549 Requiem for him on his anniversary (which set his ashes flurrying a bit) - I recommend using the Merbecke music. We got some clerkes to sing Man that is borne... and In the middest of life as well as the special forms of Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus

Cryptogram,
the spare leg might have been taken away by St George's dragon. Try looking for it by the dragon's egg behind the Abbott's kitchen. The children found lots of treasure there on St George's day..... but no legs...

The Glastonbury Thorn, transatlantic style. Maybe the Mandate of Heaven is still with ECUSA?

http://www.stalbansschool.org/home/news_item.asp?id=279&newsArea=home

One of St Mary's atheist God-fearers has just passed on to me a wonderful snip from the Anglican Independent Communion's Rt. Rev. Prof. Barry F Peachey:

"The Anglican church in this country will recover, but not until parishes and the faithful get control of their buildings and ministers. When the people support their parish church as an independent Trus and pick their own clergy and faithful bishops, the monolithic state church that entertains every kind of hypocrite and heretic will fold up. An object lesson on in (sic) the future is the explosive increase in the size of the traditional Anglican Independent Communion Worldwide."

Does this guy have ++Abuja's 'phone number? Does he know Martyn Minns?

cryptogram: "Incidentally, Mynsterpreost, we had a 1549 Requiem for him on his anniversary (which set his ashes flurrying a bit) - I recommend using the Merbecke music. We got some clerkes to sing Man that is borne... and In the middest of life as well as the special forms of Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus"

No, NO.....I vote Byrd Four Part for sure!!!!
But yes, Purcell's forementioned anthem also truly totally terrific.

And Howell's psalm tune in b flat minor. That'l soften them up for sure. To die for.

Cryptogram. Great as is my devotion to the 1549 book, don't you think it a little disrespectful to sing requiem for a man prepared to die an atrocious death rather than renounce his objections to, among other things, prayers for the departed? Since you say "bishop", the deceased is presumably Hooper or Ferrar. Ferrar, while in prison, signed a declaration of faith which included the statement: "We confess and believe that as a man departeth this life, so shall he be judged in the last day generally, and in the mean season is entered either into the state of the blessed help, or else needs no help of any in this life. By reason whereof we affirm purgatory, masses of Scala coeli, trentals, and such suffrages as the popish church doth obtrude as necessary, to be the doctrine of Antichrist."

Choirboyfromhell. Marbecke has the advantage of being suited to congregational worship. Twisting Cranmer's liturgy to Byrd's setting might or might not work. Next time you hear Schubert's "Ave Maria" sung with the Latin Angelic Salutation tortured to the music, bear in mind that the correct, German, words are a translation of Ellen's prayer from Walter Scott's "Lady of the Lake" - a work which also includes "Hail to the Chief", which, alas, Schubert failed to set.

Far enough off subject for one day, I'd say.

Choirboy, the authentic music for 1549 is Merbecke. Byrd wrote those Masses later, and for recusant use.

The church where we celebrated that liturgy had the father of Thomas Tomkins as its Vicar in Elizabeth's time: though the personal connection was strong, the use of Tomkins' music would have been out of context. And though I have no doubt whatever that the organ there was played by Howells on numerous occasions, his music too would have been an anachronism. So would Purcell.

If you are reconstructing 1549 (or 1555) you do need to have some totality of view. For the same reason we thought long and hard about which shape of black chasuble should be worn, and even found a maniple to go with it.

crypto:

I did not realize that you were planning for an authentic 1549 mass setting, my apologies. But the "Man that is Borne of a Women" anthem I've only known was composed by Purcell in the late 1680's. There is a setting by Merbecke?

Black Chasuble w/ maniples! And of course you have a dalmatic and tunic set to complement. And I come from the land of "High Solemn Morning Prayer" (Communion monthly with cassock, surplice and stole!) Gives wonderful meaning to the big umbrella that still exists in the AC.

Yes, we're pretty far off of the subject.

Weird Rabbit:

I had to sing Schubert's Ave Maria (yawn) at a LUTHERAN funeral a few months ago, and get this, they wanted it in LATIN!!!! I had the German down, then they through me for a loop!

It was all I could do to get through the piece without laughing myself silly.

Oh well, a gig is a gig.

The Lady of the Lake is said to have been Walter Scott's first own work, a poem in Ballad style.

It was a immense success all over Europe.

It may be found in the guise not only of German Singspiel: Freulein vom See, but also if I am not quite mistaken, as Italian bel canto opera: La Donna del Lago, set by not less gay a composer; Gaetano Donizetti, and not least as a French Panorama wallpaper (2 known sets in Sweden, where it is called Sjöfröken).

Continuing merrily off-topic, my liturgical muckings about are complicated by the fact that the remains returning cover a thousand-year spread of the faith, so, resisting the temptation to throw in too many bits from the regularis concordia (the source, of course, of the Collect for Purity), 1549 just about hits the right balance, one eyeball on Sarum, the other on the BCP. The great thing is, the mass could be celebrated on the site of the Saxon altar: I'm not quite sure how long it is since that last happened, but the Saxon chancel was demolished in about C12. But will English Heritage allow smoke in their newly-decorated building I wonder...?

Byrd (whose house with its glorious oriel window stands opposite Lincoln's East Front) was one of those wonderful people who wrote for anyone: very Anglican!

Somewhere this past few days, I read on the internet that the Saxon church at Barton had twin apses. Would both have contained altars? I am miles away from a copy of Taylor. I seem to remember that Byzantine churches of the period frequently had triple apses, but that only the central one contained an altar.

Maybe you'll have to go with the "greatest hits" approach - selections over the centuries - for the requiem. On which note, I was checking for the texts of Scott's and Schubert's "Ave Maria" - easily found on Wikipedia - and was delighted by a list of stars and not-entirely-stars who have recorded it, chiefly, I imagine, in the "bastardized" version. Intriguing, for many reasons, is an Elvis Presley/Barbra Streisand duet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellens_dritter_Gesang

"Saxon church at Barton had twin apses"

Not quite correct: it appear that the central tower was flanked E and W by symmetrical structures, one of which was a baptistry (the foundations of the Saxon font were found in excavations, I believe) and the other the chancel. There are questions about how the church was used and how it related to the rest of the town, being so small - the baptistry is maybe 6m x 6m.

The full excavation report is now (I believe) with the printers, but I'll need a mortgage to buy it.

Mynster

The archaeologists should provide the church with free copies of the report. I've got a copy here of a report on excavations of the Romano-british remains beneath one of our churches, and I think it's one of 3 provided to the PCC. Tell them that if the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society can provide offprints, then they should be able to do it too. The downside is that the excavations took place in 1978/9, and the details were published in 2003.

I suspect that it's time to sing requiem over this itinerant page, as well. Like losing an old friend. Thank you Simon for being more tolerant of us than others were before you.

Echoing Lapin's comments - indeed, Simon, an Eastertide indulgence for one who doesn't 'do' theology OR management.

I shall now belt up about matters pre-W*ll**m the B*st*rd (until the next time). Though the excavations here ran from the late 70's to the early 80's.... it'll be 2 or 3 volumes.

Yes Simon likewise, I just can't stop singing, thanks for letting us stroll....