Sunday, 14 February 2010

more on the ACNA debate - part 2

Updated yet again Tuesday evening

See earlier list of pro-ACNA items.

The Church Times headline is Synod holds off from ACNA.

THE General Synod declined on Wednesday afternoon to express a desire to be in communion with the Anglican Church in North Amerca (ACNA).

But, “aware of the distress caused by recent divisions” in the Anglican Churches of the US and Canada, it recognised and affirmed the desire of those who had formed ACNA to be part of the Anglican family, and “acknowledged that this aspiration, in respect both of relations with the Church of England and membership of the Anglican Communion, raises issues which the relevant authorities of each need to explore further”.

Earlier in the week, Matt Davies of ENS had reported Church of England says no to full communion with breakaway entity.

Church Mouse For the avoidance of doubt - the CofE did not ‘recognise’ the ACNA yesterday

Simple Massing Priest “Just a flesh wound”

Lionel Deimel Declaring Victory and Moving On

Scott Gunn Parsing Synod — what have they done?

Jim’s Thoughts resolution

Colin Coward Lorna Ashworth’s motion about the Anglican Church in North America

ask the priest Synod, ACNA and the FCE - A narrowly-avoided theological misstep


More from Simple Massing Priest
SOMEBODY on the Anglican Right is lying
Another lie from the Anglican Right

Justin Brett ACNA-Related Ramblings

Stand Firm has discovered another document, Copy of TEC Memo Circulated at CoE Synod.

Posted by Simon Sarmiento on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 8:29am GMT | TrackBack
You can make a Permalink to this if you like
Categorised as: Canada | Church of England | ECUSA | General Synod

Lionel Deimel links to an LA Times article in which +Duncan gives up even a semblance of telling the truth:

""We had never asked for anything. British understatement being what it is, I think they went very far down the field. They have basically said they favor overlapping provinces here." "

Posted by: Bill Dilworth (BillyD) on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 2:30pm GMT

The general tenor of post-Synod commentary among TEC's supporters and well-wishers seems to be "Hurrah! Ashcroft motion comprehensively wrecked! Nothing to worry about; C of E on our side; we can all relax now."

The ACNA activist Michael Howell's comment on Stand Firm! gives a somewhat different impression, which is (I think) cause for our continuing concern. Enough so that I break a firm rule and post it, with apologies, to a second thread:

Howell writes "[a]s one of the ACNA representatives and as someone who worked on strategy with Lorna Ashworth, and a host of other CoE delegates this week at General Synod this week […]

"After Bp. Harvey, Fr. Baucum, Cynthia and I gave our presentations at Tuesday’s luncheon, two things were very clear:

1) There are many (non-radical) CoE members who still have doubts that the atrocities of TEC and the ACoC are real. It’s just very hard for them to believe that “churches” could disregard proper procedure and behave in such a manner.

[This will refer to the alleged depositions of "orthodox" clergy merely for their "orthodox" views. And no, that isn't what has been happening, but that's the view of things that has been spread, with little contradiction, by prominent Church of England Evangelicals, several bishops among them. Now even Martin Reynolds+ and Gregory Cameron+ appear to believe the false stories. --ed.]

"2) Our presentations had a VERY positive impact on many delegates who had previously thought the ACNA was nothing more than bunch of “homophobic schismatics”, who did not want to play by the “rules”, and were simply looking to rejoin “the club” for ulterior motives. Time and time again, delegates approached me and told me that after listening to us, they had to do a complete 180 degree turn on their previously-held opinions. Our strongest allies in the General Synod felt that this was a major reason why the (albeit) revised resolution passed by such an overwhelming majority.

So -- no reason to relax! Frankly, the leadership of TEC made a grave error in the 1980s and 1990s, by not taking the schismatics seriously enough early on to counter their actions effectively. I see the mistake has been repeated on an international scale. It is not yet an irretrievable mistake, though. Not yet.

Posted by: Charlotte on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 6:47pm GMT

There is a point at which spin becomes blatant falsehood, and I think Duncan has now passed it beyond any doubt.

Posted by: JPM on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 8:09pm GMT

"So, while the resolution nicely acknowledges that the founders of ACNA want to be part of the Anglican Communion, it is actually pretty explicit that they are not."

Malcom+'s take on 'Simple Massing Priest' puts the matter, I feel, in pretty clear perspective.
The fact that Lorna Ashton's Minders in ACNA were denied their recognition 3 times by General Synod should give a clear enough message to her and to them that the Church of England is not ready to accommodate schismatics.

A further shock to ACNA and the Dissidents must have occurred when General Synod voted to make a generous accommodation with their aggreement to provide adequate pension arrangements for those who are surviving same-sex partners of clergy within the Church of England. This measure clearly acknowledges and accepts the fact that there actually are Gay Clergy within the Mother Church of the Anglican Communion. This must have given pause, surely, to ACNA and at least Uganda's deisre to be part of the broad spectrum of Anglicanism as it now is seen to be.

Bravo, Church of England!!!

Posted by: Father Ron Smith on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 9:11pm GMT

While I think that "our side" clearly won the contest, Charlotte is quite right to say that we are nowhere near the opportunity to let our guard down.

The scismatical thieves and liars will continue to theive and lie. Although Matt Kennedy has admitted the devastating defeat they suffered, Bob Duncan and the rest of his hoods and cronies are out spreading false tales everywhere anyone will listen.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 9:46pm GMT

Let me get this straight.

Archbishop Duncan says "we had never asked for anything".

Lorna Asworth says
"For the avoidance of doubt, I wish to emphasize that the genesis of this motion lies entirely with myself in discussion with a handful of friends who are members of this Synod. Neither I nor others have been asked to bring this motion by representatives of ACNA. They have simply supplied information on request."

Michael Howell says "[a]s one of the ACNA representatives and as someone who worked on strategy with Lorna Ashworth, and a host of other CoE delegates...".

Someone is not telling the truth.

Posted by: Newlin on Sunday, 14 February 2010 at 11:08pm GMT

Today Kendall Harman's website posted an e-mail from the Anglican Diocese of Quincy (ACNA), which includes this sentence: "The Diocese of Quincy is a founding member diocese of the Anglican Church in North America, which was recognized this week by a resolution by the General Synod of the Church of England, the mother-church from which the 78-million member Anglican Communion grew." The spin continues.

Posted by: dr.primrose on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 12:30am GMT

Good catch, Newlin.

Now, it is possible that Archbishop Bob and Synod Member Laura are telling the truth and it's Michael Howell who's lying.

But it makes more sense that Michael Howell is (inadvertently) telling the truth while Bob Duncan and Lorna Ashworth are lying.

And it does match both of their track records very well.

Posted by: Malcolm+ on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 4:00am GMT

Heres a statement from the so-called American Anglican Council ( a front for ACNA)......note they make no mention of divorce and re-marriage...thats how traditional they are...

Human Sexuality: Sexuality is inherent in God's creation of every human person in his image as male and female. All Christians are called to chastity: husbands and wives by exclusive sexual fidelity to one another and single persons by abstinence from sexual intercourse. God intends and enables all people to live within these boundaries, with the help and in the fellowship of the Church.

If you can't jump the bar simply lower it... nice one ACNA

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 7:21am GMT

Newlin said: "Someone is not telling the truth."

Goes with the territory.

Posted by: Göran Koch-Swahne on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 11:19am GMT

"There is a point at which spin becomes blatant falsehood, and I think Duncan has now passed it beyond any doubt."

Having kept track of Dunkin's writings, actions, and utterences over the last several years, I suspect he is not consciously lying, but rather, really believes what he says. It is why some people refer to him as Delusional Dunkin'. That does not make him or his handlers and fellow liars and thieves any less dangerous.

Posted by: Cynthia Gilliatt on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 1:38pm GMT

If Duncan is telling the truth, why were Don Harvey and others at General Synod?

Posted by: Jim Pratt on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 4:36pm GMT

They are proud to be in " communion " and accepted by a Church which condones gay relationships, by granting de facto recognition to gay couples.... WOW!

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 7:21pm GMT

Isn't this what they call putting fantasies on the ground?

Posted by: Tobias Haller on Monday, 15 February 2010 at 10:17pm GMT

Kendall Harmon's blog reveals just how far from the truth the ACNA associates can be. For their Diocese of Quincy to think that the Church of England General Synod actually acknowledged their membership of the 'Anglican family', when it merely noted their desire to 'remain' in that *family* (together with lots of other sodalities calling themselves by one 'anglican' title or another) - without actually saying anything at all about their claim to be members of the more officially entitled 'Anglican Communion'.

One supposes that the people in the pews of ACNA, having largely been led by the nose by their clergy and faux bishops 'out of the Communion', may be pleased to think that their rebellion has been rewarded. This is not the case, in fact.

And as for Lorna Ashton 'working alone' on her aborted PM Motion, her flurry of meetings with notable secessionist faux bishops, clergy, and the staff of 'Virtue-on-line' before the Synod vote, weould have put paid to that theory.

Posted by: Father Ron Smith on Tuesday, 16 February 2010 at 1:22am GMT

Charles Raven criticises Rowan Williams by saying...

He used the device of inviting Synod to adopt a ‘three dimensional’ approach, no doubt suggested by the highly popular 3D film ‘Avatar’. However, everyone knows that the film is fiction and the 3D effect is simply that – an effect. It is not reality and likewise what Rowan Williams is offering is a fiction in 3D – that there is a third dimension which will allow everyone to live together without sacrificing their integrity

Raven is an advocate of ACNA...

Yet within ACNA we have two opposing interpretations of what Christianity means......

The Anglo-Catholics believe in Apostolic succession, the real corporal presence , the sacrifice of the Mass, eucharistic reservation and worship of the sacred species, prayers for the dead and to the Saints... Evangelicals teach that this is heresy, thrown out by the English Reformers.

If this is not synthesis what is it... and of course let's not mention the disagreement on women's ordination and divorce.

Charles Raven look at the log in your own eye.

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Tuesday, 16 February 2010 at 8:22am GMT


Having just finished Brian D. McLaren's book "A New Kind of Christianity", I suggest that Rowan Williams' "three-dimensional approach" may actually come out of McLaren's work. McLaren speaks of a three-dimensional biblical narrative and a 3-D "participatory eschatology". It's far too complex to get into in a short comment here, but I recommend McLaren to any Thinking Anglican...or even a Thinking Roman, like yourself.

Posted by: Pat O'Neill on Tuesday, 16 February 2010 at 11:16am GMT

I don't agree at all with Justin Brett's favorable attitude towards ACNA's request - how would he feel if the Free Church of England asked to be affirmed (ie to have their desire to be part of the AC affirmed)?

Posted by: Sara MacVane on Tuesday, 16 February 2010 at 8:39pm GMT

"Many members and clergy of ACNA congregations have NEVER been members of TEC or the Anglican Church of Canada. Creating a state of full communion would have endorsed groups whose theology could have created problems for the C.of E." - David, in 'ask the priest' -

Let's all hope that this reality - that ACNA is made up of several NON-ANGLICAN entities, some of which have made schismatic breaks with member Churches of the Communion - is taken on board by the Church of England General Synod 2011, as well as the rest of the other 'Anglican Communion' Provinces, before any attempt is made to accept or accommodate ACNA's spurious claim to a puritan *orthodoxy* within the Communion.

With so much at stake in the need for a truly Inclusive Church, ACNA's inclusion into world-wide Anglicanism would put a real 'Joker' in the pack. Such a prophylactic vaccination would ensure no further development of healthy dialogue on issues of gender and sexuality in the Church. Would we all like to emulate the 'theology' of the Churches of Uganda and Nigeria on this important matter?

Posted by: Father Ron Smith on Wednesday, 17 February 2010 at 9:57am GMT

If I recall the Chapman Memo and similar IRD plans correctly, one core strategy has always been - what is accurate? - The Conservative Spin Doctor Presuppositional Strategy?

Start with unexamined, unquestioned presuppositions. Use this lexicon to define, categorize, and interpret or read anything and everything that may come your way. A most glaring technique is when the going presuppositional lexicon gets used to shift, change, or alter context which otherwise might affect, alter, or disrupt the spin even as it whirls around the given presuppositional centers. In one way, spin-presup gets used to accept one part of a given real world, real church life context, while at the same time ignoring another contextual part. Thus, per our spin machines, seeking recognition and official-formal communion with CoE completely spins away the obvious reality on the British ground - most inconsistent with the presuppositions - then we end up with a simple shift: (1) no gay priests or gay bishops exist in the CoE which could possibly be a matter of discussion, let alone affect theological reflections, plus (2) no ethically committed same sex relationships exist among CoE folks at any level which could in any conceivable, admitted way effect change in our ethics or theology of queer folks in our church communities. Nary a mention of the synod deciding about benefits for civil partners, then?

Another example is the common narrative in which believers are said to have two options - lifelong marriage among straights, and strict celibacy for everybody else. Sounds quite traditional - until, unless one pauses to remark that the huge shifts in our theology and ethics concerning contraception, divorce, and remarriage have suddenly been rendered unreal and invisible.

Once you start spinning, presuppositionally, it is simply amazing how quickly one can seem to remould the world, church life, hot button issues, and nearly any inconvenient human, social, or church life reality. One burden then is that everybody else has to repeatedly decode; or your spin-presups stay unchallenged so you may cry (loudly) I won, I won the spin game.

This spin presup business is so powerful that only USA court proceedings have been able to declare what is, and what is not though spin doctors claim it to be legally effective.

Spin doctoring is hardly ethics, hardly theology?

Posted by: drdanfee on Thursday, 18 February 2010 at 4:26am GMT

Robert Ian Williams,

Something I've been longing to say, is that, while I don't agree with your theology or ecclesiology, I do appreciate your efforts to bring to light both ACNA's and - at times - our inconsistencies in praxis and belief. There is a nobility in not simply supporting someone who believes as you do on certain subjects, and I appreciate that in you and aspire to it.

Posted by: MarkBrunson on Thursday, 18 February 2010 at 5:00am GMT

Thank you Mark ...... on ACNA, I 've just read the presentation Bishop Harvey ( of canadian ACNA) gave to the C of E Synod...he's Jim Packer's new bishop. Yet he reveals he prays to the Virgin Mary and is a preiest o associate of Walsingham.

The whole of Jim Packer's life has been to denounce the errors of Anglo-Catholicism.... but.....he is prepared to go under a bishop who prays to Mary, and yet affirms the 39 articles, which denounce invocation of Saints!

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Thursday, 18 February 2010 at 9:49pm GMT

Very encouraging indeed bach !

'Thank you Mark ...... on ACNA, I 've just read the presentation Bishop Harvey ( of canadian ACNA) gave to the C of E Synod...he's Jim Packer's new bishop. Yet he reveals he prays to the Virgin Mary and is a preiest o associate of Walsingham.

The whole of Jim Packer's life has been to denounce the errors of Anglo-Catholicism.... but.....he is prepared to go under a bishop who prays to Mary, and yet affirms the 39 articles, which denounce invocation of Saints!

Posted by: Robert Ian williams on Thursday, 18 February 2010 at 9:49pm GMT

Goo ole Cenacle...

Posted by: Rev L Roberts on Friday, 19 February 2010 at 5:13pm GMT

Robert Ian Williams wrote: "The whole of Jim Packer's life has been to denounce the errors of Anglo-Catholicism.... but.....he is prepared to go under a bishop who prays to Mary, and yet affirms the 39 articles, which denounce invocation of Saints!"

A quotation from Prof. Packer: "Well, if anyone had told me twenty years ago that I would be agreeing with the Anglo-Catholic position on anything, I would have laughed in his face. Today, I find that I agree to the point of calling myself an Evangelical Catholic."
(Sunday, September 20, 2009,
Bishop Keith Ackerman, FiFNA, Visits With Texas MSJ Chapter)

Another quotation from this article: "He (Bishop Ackerman-PK) spoke of his great joy in visiting with evangelical Anglicans around the world and demonstrating to them that their views were actually the historic Anglo-Catholic views, while dismantling the caricatures built up regarding Anglo-Catholics as more interested in Mary than in mission and the spread of the Gospel in Christ Jesus."

Posted by: PeterK on Thursday, 25 February 2010 at 10:12pm GMT
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