Thinking Anglicans

Wednesday evening statements

Several statements have appeared:

Statement by the Secretary General on behalf of the Joint Standing Committee of the Primates and the Anglican Consultative Council.

From the Primate of Nigeria: A STATEMENT ON THE RESPONSE OF THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH TO THE DAR ES SALAAM COMMUNIQUÉ

From South Carolina: A Report on the New Orleans House of Bishops from Bishop Edward Salmon

The BBC reports that: Gay bishop move rejected by Kenya

There is a quote from the Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church in this press release about an Inclusive Church event.

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Neil
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Neil

After the kind genorosity of the TEC towards the slower element of the AC, may the ungenerous response of the Kenyan Archbishop be despised and rejected. I hope he may hold his head in shame. I would love to say what I really think but I know it would not get past the moderators.

Neil
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Neil

The statement from the Archbishop of Nigeria is issued in a papal tone. I think this is mistaken, but rejoice that this presages his self imposed marginalisation to which he should (and soon will) have been consigned years ago. May he reign forever in Fantasy Island!

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“”That word ‘halt’ is not enough,” said Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi.”

Halt, stop, not go forward. What more do ++Nzimbi and his fellows want? Do they want TEC to rescind the consecration of +Robinson? How do we do that and maintain the polity of TEC as constituted in its canons?

Of course, they don’t care about that…as NP has intimated, it’s just ridiculous that we insist on electing our bishops anyway.

Merseymike
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Merseymike

What is becoming absolutely clear from these statements, contributions to conservative blogs and so on, is that the conservatives will only be happy if TEC and other liberals alter their theological position.

That’s not going to happen, and so the intent to form another ‘Anglican’ Communion will go ahead.

The one that remains will, I think, be able to live far more comfortably with diversity.

If the CofE loses its lunatic fringe it will also be a far better place.

garth
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garth

Knowing good bishops of TEC on both sides of this debate, I truly appreciate the hard work they put in to making this statement. Once again, however, a great sacrifice has been asked of– and largely granted by– us lesbian and gay faithful and all those who take seriously Christ’s Gospel. And once again, Nigeria, Kenya, South Carolina, and others are quick to say it’s not enough. It seems increasingly clear that the conservatives are not really interested in the Gospel or in the Communion, but in their own self serving power. How long, O Lord, how long?

James
Guest
James

Here’s a letter I wrote to my priest: “I am troubled about the Bishops’ statement this week. The Anglican Church says that homosexuality is sinful. That’s the bottom line. There are individuals and dioceses which are gay-friendly, but they have to work within an organization which oppresses gays. This makes the Anglican Church like the Confederacy–there are certain states and certain plantations which are nice to their slaves, but slavery is still the law of the land. I don’t think I can be a slave, grateful to my friendly masters, in a Confederacy which still supports slavery. I’m not sure… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

It is probably only fitting to allow some time/space for people to read, reflect, and respond – along with hearing more quickly from folks who have been on the forefront of the clashes between/among differing views (and who therefore pretty much know just what they think so far about the several possible presenting hot button conflict themes). Then we shall see if we have a consensus, either about maintaining diversity and inclusion among differing believer views of hot button things, or whether the consensus is for only the type of conservative realignment which the campaign by conservative believers has consistently… Read more »

Malcolm+
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Malcolm+

The ‘conservatives” are interested only in their own total domination of the Communion. Anything less than the complete submission of the Episcopal Church to the foreign prelates would have been acceptable.

The ensuing self-righteous hatemongering from the “conservatives” was entirely predictable.

NP
Guest
NP

Pat – you show me where in the bible it says that we should be electing bishops??

You ask “Do they want TEC to rescind the consecration of +Robinson?”
……Neil calls the GS “slow”

Iain
Guest
Iain

It is good that the TEC have now called the bluff of the conservatives and evangelical Africans. At least it removes any doubt that Windsor, the Communique, and all other attempts to reconcile the communion are merely a sideshow used by these people in an attempt to take over the communion and land grab territory in the US. Is there any point any longer in refraining from calling a spade a spade?

The papal ambitions of Archbishop Akinola are becoming clearer by the day. The sooner that self-imposed marginalisation of these schismatics happens, the better.

Colin Coward
Guest

Archbishop Peter Akinola’s statement was obviously written by Bishop Martyn Minns – no surprise there. What is surprising is that although it repeats the same old things, it isn’t as forceful as previous statements and made me feel quite sad. Akinola and Minns are not going to get what they have been demanding, and now they know it. Almost certainly Akinola is going to be humiliated by having to reverse everything he has said before, and come to Lambeth. Akinola (in fact, Minns) uses the first person in the first paragraph, as if he is speaking for all the Primates,… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

James

You have articulated one of my major concerns. There were GLBTs and friends and families who thought they had found a refuge in TEC.

Now they wonder if they can trust those refuges. It is ten times harder to win back a lost customer than make a new one.

A conservative victory, but my heart goes out to the GLBTs and friends and family who wonder if God will ever give them a safe sanctuary.

NP
Guest
NP

No Malcolm, “conservatives” merely desire the AC to stick to its own scriptures and agreed positions……not much to ask really

badman
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badman

I don’t think it is accurate to talk about “the conservatives” as if they are all of one mind. Most of the Anglican Communion is conservative on matters of human sexuality, but most even of the conservatives are committed to the Anglican Communion. The conservative wreckers had the initiative, and have done a lot of damage, but their number is now up. The conservatives, on the whole, will appreciate the concessions that TEC has made and will not support the expulsion of TEC or the self destruction of the Anglican Communion over a non-credal, non-Gospel issue. Some will leave –… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

James, I appreciate you are upset, but do you really intend the comparison between gay people in the Church and slavery? Sorry, but I’m a gay person, and I find that over the top. The Church is not denying my humanity, despite the rhetoric of some, She is not about to flog me or sell me away from my family, or cut my Achilles Tendons so I can’t run. The Church, well except for Nigeria, isn’t trying to commit atrocities against me. I hope you calm down and rethink this. Frankly, I found the comparison offensive. We are not suffering… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“not much to ask really” It is actually a great thing to ask that the Church be a party to what you consider to be mistreatment of you and that She permit blatant hypocrisy by her leaders thus bringing the Gospel into disrepute. Many gay people feel the former, at times I feel it is over the top, but I respect people feel this way, and it hurts them to be so dehumanized. I’m sure you know this, NP, after all, it’s not just that I and others have been saying it repeatedly, but the hurtful, unhelpful quality of the… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Ford, as NP keeps saying – two wrongs don’t make a right. Of course people in Nigeria are much more persecuted than we are here, and there is nothing to stop you from joining us in Changing Attitude in Nigeria and to fight side by side with Colin Coward and Davis Mac-Iyalla for better conditions over there. But since I started living openly with my partner, my church involvement here has also come to a grinding halt. It’s nice for you that you are not feeling discriminated against because God isn’t calling you to be a bishop anyway (this from… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford – for the umpteenth time, two wrongs do not make a right. You can repeat your (often accurate) criticism of “conservatives” as much as you like but still we have to deal with the issues and those who are teaching that what the bible calls sin is now, according to their special revelation, not a sin – despite 2000 years of scripture and tradition and most Christian thought (even in the US!) today. One of the false accusations from you above – “You are saying that it is no big deal for the Church to accept the oppression of… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Erika, There’s nothing like what you describe in our more or less conservative diocese, so I am, I guess, a little naive as to what gay people elsewhee are putting up with. All the same, just because the Church won’t do what you want doesn’t mean you are being descriminated against, which is what you seem to be saying. Not letting you be a reader or take full part in parish life, that’s another thing entirely and deserves to be confronted. I am reacting to the idea expressed by some that not marrying us is some horribly oppressive thing, dehumanizes… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Please take this back.” NP, “it really is not much to ask for vicars and bishops in the COfE to uphold the teaching of the church.” Well, many say that by doing this, the Church is oppressing her members. Sticking to agreed positions certainly does lead to the oppression of some Christians in Nigeria, the gay ones they pretned don’t exist. This is indeed a very big thing, so, I won’t take it back. “we have to deal with the issues” Indeed. And the biggest issue is Church leaders who pretend to follow the Gospel while reviling their fellow Christians,… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Pat O’Neil —

I thought that Archbishop Akinola had, in fact, called for Gene Robinson to step down as a precondition for restoration of communion with TEC.

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ford, I’m sorry, I should not have accused you of complicity, that was the wrong word. But it strikes me that there is a strange mindset, and I’m guilty of it myself. Take your comments on previous threads that you’re not out in your church. No-one here seemed to think there was anything particularly noteworthy about that. It’s just how many gay people live. And I can fully understand why they do! But if you imagine a straight man saying that he’s married but hasn’t told anyone in his church and that he will not want to live an open… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

1. I quite understand that James feels hurt. “I can’t see a reason, as a gay man, to remain an Episcopalian.” I hope that he will find that reason to remain in the coming days, weeks, months, years. If not, Godspeed to him. I do note, however, that he is not proposing to steal the silver on his way out the door. Unlike some. 2. badman makes an important point about conservatives not being all of one mind. My (perhaps overly subtle) practice has been to distinguish between conservatives (those who take a traditional view, but who treat their fellow… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“Pat – you show me where in the bible it says that we should be electing bishops??” No–you answer my question first. I already asked that you show me anywhere in the Bible where electing bishops is forbidden. In fact, I asked you to show me anywhere that a specific method for choosing bishops is even suggested, let alone prescribed. Further, I pointed you to the earliest example of choosing a church leader–the selection of Matthias to replace Judas–and it appears to be either an election or a lottery (depending on how you want to interpret “casting lots”). I can’t… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Ah, no, NP, sorry. Lambeth 1.10 from 1998 is not the real agreed upon position of the Anglican Communion. The true agreed upon and worked through position – which nobody would have liked all that much, but which would at least have been more accurate, and to that truthful extent, helpful – would have been the original resolution/report submitted by the working group charged with discerning sexuality issues. Instead of this real deal, we got a sudden wave of conservative manuevering, helped along greatly by Lord Carey in one of his better moments as a conservative campaign leader. Of course… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Pat – the CofE method is even worse than TEC’s! It is just ridiculous to have politicians and the palace involved – even worse than the party politics we see in TEC. St Paul clearly sets out what makes some people unfit to be leaders – see Titus, see letters to Timothy – some people in the church want to ignore what he said but I do not and I am not alone, you know. For how people should become leaders, see Acts 14 & 15 for example: http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Acts+14%3A215-23 The biblical pattern is that godly leaders appoint other godly leaders… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

The Pastoral Letters (so called from the 18th century) were not written by St Paul himself, but are a century later.

More importantly, they d e n y his expressed views on the Gospel, the Congregation, Society, Women, Slaves, Military service & c.

Just telling you how it is. Not that you will listen.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

O, yeah! incidentally, dear NP, what I just told you – not bits and pieces of Lambeth 1998 “resolution” I:10 – is a “recived teaching”.

;=)

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“The biblical pattern is that godly leaders appoint other godly leaders to carry on the work (being careful about their life and doctrine)”

So, the people being led should have no choice in who leads them? Poppycock! (A stronger, more barnyard epithet actually occurred to me first, but considering the nature of this site…)

What you are proposing is simply the RC method–top-down choosing of leaders, which only coagulates the leadership, making real change difficult if not impossible.

NP
Guest
NP

Goran- please don’t waste your time telling me scriptures do not mean what they say and you you do not even know who wrote them…. I worked out long ago that you are not one of the great biblical scholars of our time…..so I am not surprised you keep on saying how much you do not understand from the bible. Maybe I am very stupid and you are very clear…..but I notice that real biblical scholars like Dr Wright (+Durham), to name just one of many, seem to hold very similar views to me on scripture and current issues ripping… Read more »

Stephen Roberts
Guest
Stephen Roberts

If only all bishops led the blameless lives they espouse:

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=45360

http://www.speroforum.com/site/print.asp?idarticle=5381

Of course, it will be a cold morning in hell before the GS et al condemn such behaviour.

James 2.8-13 springs to mind.

Malcolm+
Guest
Malcolm+

Why NP, this is simply silly. You decry the election of bishops, but when challenged you call for “godly leaders” to select them. How incredibly arrogant, judgemental and (dare I say it) wicked of you to condemn out of hand the fine Christian men and women who are chosen to represent their congregations and parishes at an electoral synod. Just who do you think you are to tell me that the three synod delegates from my parish are not godly? Of course, they don’t agree with you on every jot and tittle of scriptural interpretation so that just makes them… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Just who do you think you are to tell me that the three synod delegates from my parish are not godly?”

By all accounts, he is someone to whom Gopd has given the authority to sit in judgement of the Godliness of others. He seems unafraid that he will be judged by the same standards he applies to others.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Seems to me NP, that you deliberately left out the point about this being “the recieved teaching”, Dunelm or no Dunelm.

NP
Guest
NP

Malcolm – pls do not put words in my mouth……but I am sure you can see the weaknesses of elections (in which special interest groups can push their agendas) and the mad system we have in England. Stephen Roberts – yes, we were warned that there would be wolves dressed as sheep…..this is why ST Paul told us not to have leaders who were drunks, adulterers, greedy etc etc – because the church has always had a problem of unfit people wanting to lead at every level, we must stick to what God has revealed in scripture makes a person… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“…but I am sure you can see the weaknesses of elections (in which special interest groups can push their agendas) and the mad system we have in England.”

And who is to say that those “special interest groups” are not doing the work of the Spirit?

BTW, why is it only “special interest groups” whose special interests you disagree with that are a problem? You think there are no “SIGs” operating in the USA aiming at conservative results?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“in which special interest groups can push their agendas” The point, I think, is that specific agendas are LESS likely when the whole people have a say. I find your willingness to give up the right of the people of God to speak in selecting their leaders to be odd. You seem to be advocating a system wherein one bishop appoints others, he being Godly. That’s the way Rome does it, NP. Even a Pope is elected by the cardinals, and then he appoints all the other bishops. There you go again, betraying the Reformation you claim to stand for… Read more »