Thinking Anglicans

more follow-up on New Orleans and the JSC report

Andrew Goddard has made a very detailed analysis of the Joint Standing Committee Report which you can read at Fulcrum: The Anglican Communion after New Orleans and the Joint Standing Committee Report.

It includes an interesting description of how the report was compiled.

Kendall Harmon had A Conversation with Elizabeth Paver, member of the ACC Standing Committee.

Peter Jensen spoke to the Australian General Synod: Responding to the American House of Bishops – Archbishop Peter Jensen.

George Conger wrote in the Church of England Newspaper US House of Bishops Letter sparks debates on both sides.

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NP
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NP

I hope people read Dr Goddard’s analysis carefully…he is not a nasty “conservative evo” and should not written off automatically as some may be tempted to do……and note that his assessment chimes with VGR’s honest words about what happened and VGR says the JSC “MISunderstood” TEC HOB….even if deliberately, they misunderstood. TA has had criticism of the issuing of GS communiques in the past…..I bet there will be little made of ++Anis and Mrs Paver’s experience with the JSC……. Also, was the jSC report not supposed to be for the ABC and the Primates….why was it published? And why published… Read more »

MJ
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MJ

NP – “The ABC will get positive responses to TEC HOB NO statement from such important provinces as Scotland and Ireland…..”

Typical arrogance. Is that the HTB mentality – only the voices of the ‘important’ people are of any value? Is that part of Alpha? I must have missed that. BTW – What’s the cut-off point for having your voice listened to? 500,000? 1,000,000? It would be good to know, then those of ‘less importance’ needn’t bother turning up. Doesn’t seem to apply to Southern Cone though does it?

NP
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NP

MJ – your tone indicates to me that you don’t think TEC HOB is going to fool many….. No, Southern Cone is clearly not one of the most important provinces….just like the small celts. Numbers do matter in these things….I know it is inconvenient when so many are not persuaded by the “revisionist” agenda but, sorry, numbers do matter. TEC can claim 0.9m/301m = 0.29% of Americans so it is not only unrepresentative on Anglicanism but can hardly claim to be representative of the US as it tries to force the AC to accept its radical departures from the views… Read more »

Stephen Roberts
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Stephen Roberts

NP – “Numbers do matter in these things” … “sorry, numbers do matter”

How?

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

It amazes that a man who decries the idea of electing bishops puts so much importance on numbers when it comes to deciding church doctrine.

If it isn’t the Spirit operating when a majority at a convention names a bishop, why is it the Spirit operating when a majority decides whether or not an openly gay man can be ordained or consecrated, or whether two gays can have their union blessed?

Can’t have it both ways, NP–either the Spirit speaks though such “numbers” in both cases or not at all.

MJ
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MJ

Good to know NP. So it is official – only those provinces with more members than TEC (officially 2,000,000+ despite what NP quotes) are to be considered ‘important’ – since NP deems both small ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ provinces as unimportant. That would leave us with Australia, England, Kenya, Nigeria, S. India and Uganda. Please tell all other Primates not be bother attending Primates’ Meetings any more – they are not ‘important’ enough. And bishops of such ‘unimportant’ provinces may as well stay away from Lambeth too.

Pluralist
Guest

I don’t know if any of this makes much difference. Presumably the Archbishop of Canterbury is receiving Primates’ responses, and there may or may not be any alteration to his invitations to Lambeth 2008, and he might have a view of the “status” of TEC (that could come after Lambeth 2008 as much as before) and then the Anglican Consultative Council may or may not decide membership of the Communion whatever his view may be or not. It may make no difference either. I would suppose that most people are confused now by the Archbishop and the basis of the… Read more »

NP
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NP

Stephen – numbers matter in a few ways – 1) the revisionist agenda has persuaded few….so, the majority in the AC do not feel compelled to change; 2) the revisionist churches in the AC have decades of decline while even in the US and the UK, evangelicals churches have had decades of growth…this gives evos confidence that God is blessing us; 3) left-wing militants have pushed the AC to accept VGR as a fait accompi (not listening to the voices who prefer covert, slow subversion of the AC) and so now we are being asked in the AC, “How many… Read more »

JPM
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JPM

Trolls go away when people ignore them.

MJ
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MJ

Being currently studying ‘The Church and the Triune God'(2006), an agreed Anglican-Orthodox statement, I was struck by their analysis of the historic process of ‘reception’ of new dogma or practice within the Church. While written primarily in regards to the ordination of women it is very pertinent for the current issue facing the AC, and very revealing as to how the process is being curtailed and pre-empted rather than being permitted to unfold under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. What follows is an edited summary. Part 1: 1. “In defining a new dogma the Church has always built upon… Read more »

MJ
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MJ

Part 2: 4. “In receiving the truth the Church is called to discern the spirits and exercise a prophetic ministry, which will enable her to see whether the demands of inculturation can be satisfied without prejudice to the soteriological content of what has already been received. This ministry is helped by theology…Its conclusions are finally expressed by the heads of the local churches as the common faith…Until this point has been reached, the process of reception is not completed; we can speak neither of dogma nor of heresy, in the sense of a deviation from the truth which would justify… Read more »

Kennedy
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Kennedy

NP
With all due respect, I find your dismissive attitude to other provinces within the Communion somewhat offensive. It does sound like part of the body saying it has no need of another part – and we know that the bible had something to say about that.

Anyway, I like being in a small province. It means that I get to meet and talk to +Idris and the other bishops on a regular basis, just in the normal course of things. Quite unlike my experience in the CofE when even a visit from the Suffragan bishop was big news.

Kennedy

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“the revisionist agenda “ A convenient construct for you, NP, it enables the reviling I am documenting in these quotes, but you know it doesn’t really exist, right, it’s all just a myth you have been fed to make it easier for yout oseparate yourself from everyone else. “revisionist churches” “left-wing militants” See, reviling again! MJ, Thanks for the posts. It seems to describe something different from what we Anglicans are currently doing, all the same. #2 is bang on. The revolutionary innovators and the conservative formalists have squared off in the Anglican Communion, and no good can come of… Read more »

NP
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NP

Kennedy – that’s fine but why should the vast majority of the 50m Anglicans in the world be forced to accept the contradictory views of a small church in the US? So often I hear that VGR was duly elected in NH…..so, 50m Anglicans must accept the rejection of Lambeth 1.10 by a some thousands in NH? People bleat on about democracy as if we are commanded to be democratic in the church….but the same people do not want another vote of all the bishops of the AC on whether we want to stick with Lambeth 1.10 or whether we… Read more »

NP
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NP

I should have kept quiet and then maybe people would have read Dr Goddard’s wisdom rather than replying to me…..

Stephen Roberts
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Stephen Roberts

Sorry NP, but your theory does not bear examination. 1) The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have bigger numbers than all the Protestant denominations combined – does this mean they are blessed by God? Does their greater membership mean they are more faithful Christians than you or I? 2) Looking to the American mega-Churches and tele-Churches – they have millions of dollars in the bank whilst people across the world starve – is that because they are more faithful? Is that how it works? Does God really hand out material wealth, numbers, popularity and power in return for obedience? 3)… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“why should the vast majority of the 50m Anglicans in the world be forced to accept the contradictory views of a small church in the US?”

“Now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three, and the greatest of these is charity.” Now, where do I remember that from? And if you try to claim that ‘charity’ in the KJV means alms, I’ll ask someone on your side of the pond to slap you!

Furthermore, since numbers matter so much, Joel Osteen packs ’em in everywhere he goes, so Prosperity Gospel must be right. You’d better get with the program!

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Jensen quoted Proverbs 18:17 ‘The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.’ Jonathan Sacks sometime last year commented that when communications technology transforms big upheavals in religious communities usually follow. The internet has collapsed timelines in terms of the speed and accuracy with which information and concepts can be shared. In both Tanzania and New Orleans, we have witnessed some souls feeling “swept” into a process. New Orleans had more integrity in that they acknowledged it was happening and did not put in names who had not yet responded i.e. they did… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

“the vast majority of the 50m Anglicans in the world “

If there was a Communion-wide plebiscite, it must have been conducted on a Sunday I was not at church.

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Our side has to win. The other side breaks the 10 commandments to justify their theology. 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me Those who claim that Jesus is all of God have put Jesus before God, and it is the antithesis of Jesus’ teachings. 2. Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol It is idolatry to make Jesus all of God, just as it is idolatry to purport the ambitions of the priests as God’s ambitions. 3. Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God Justifying “holy” wars based on deceit is… Read more »

Pluralist
Guest

Meanwhile, a breath of fresh air from all this navel gazing – by Desmond Tutu

http://frjakestopstheworld.blogspot.com/2007/10/bishop-tutu-is-god-christian.html

bls
Guest

I cannot believe how many, many words Andrew Goddard uses in order to come up with the usual formula: gays are, collectively, out of order no matter what. I notice he’s not very interested in thinking about homosexual people as actual people (which I would think would be the first step in the ever-elusive “listening process”); he’s only interested in seeing which gay folks have “violated” the rules by making commitments to their partners. How bizarre many Christians are, really. How backwards. Here are people desiring to commit to one another before God and their communities – and evangelicals can… Read more »

John Henry
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John Henry

“Numbers do matter in these things….I know it is inconvenient when so many are not persuaded by the “revisionist” agenda but, sorry, numbers do matter.”

NP, if numbers matter so much, why don’t you join the Roman Communion? But then you might have to submit to the Church’s magisterium, which determines how you read scripture. Moreover, you would have to give up your seat on the right hand of God which you occupy to judge unworthy Christians. You would much rather warm that seat until Our Lord returns in glory.

Chris
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Chris

The next time anyone rails about an orthodox poster claiming to have all the answers, please refer to what Cheryl wrote at 11:21pm BST. One can find plenty of answers in that post. After several months reading and commenting on TA, I think it’s time to move on. I see very little value in continuing with the discussion in this forum as there is precious little to discuss with out accusations or bigotry or hypocrisy flying. Far too often, those posters who claim to be the most tolerant are the most divisive and derogatory to more conservative forms of Christianity.… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

John Henry – there is no need for me to leave the AC as it is made up of about 50m people, most of whom are quite unitied, and we only have a problem with 5-10% who reject certain biblical teaching….why should the 90% leave while Lambeth 1,10 stands?? Stephen asks for a “gospel” quote which shows faithfulness is rewarded (as if that is hard to find!) Do have a read of Mark 10:17-31. The whole story is important for this debate as it shows that we cannot come with any reservations before God…..we cannot say, I want to come… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Guest

Perhaps the Sugden & Minns (S&M)Communiqué issued from Tanzania in the name of the Anglican Primates might benefit from the same highly detailed forensic analysis Andrew Goddard demonstrates here. Such an important piece of research would certainly help put the NOLA statement and the response of JSC into a clearer perspective than he goes on to write of. I spent an hour talking with Elizabeth Paver about her views and how they were being represented. Canon Paver is very much the sort of person left behind by the present method of argument. It would be easy to recruit this charming… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

“I notice he’s not very interested in thinking about homosexual people as actual people “

There’s an interesting 8 page insert in this week’s Church Times from the MCU. In response to an invitation to speak at its annual conference next July, Bishop Robinson says “As one who is often treated as an issue, rather than a human being, I look forward to trying to embody this issue in a [sic] person”.

Pluralist
Guest

Cheryl wrote at 11:21pm BST – I thought it was rather good actually.

Yes, there is quite a chasm now.

Mark Bennet
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Mark Bennet

MJ

Where do we get a copy of “The Church and the Triune God?” – I’d like to read the whole of it.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Chris wrote: “The next time anyone rails about an orthodox poster claiming to have all the answers…”

NPs opus on Saturday, 27 October 2007 at 11:20am BST certainly has got – if not all the answers – at least all the talking points pinned down in one place…

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

NP: Conservative Evangelicalism is certainly not going to convert England. Their churches are not always “successful”, numbers-wise, anyway. There is a very limited market in England for their hard-line biblical literalism, and they tend to attract people only from within the ever-dwindling circle of people who would have gone to church anyway. All the academic research that has been done on this shows that they are making no impact at all on the unchurched of England. I think that what they are doing now is actually malign because it is polarising religion in England, making the young unchurched much less… Read more »

MJ
Guest
MJ

Mark Bennet: “Where do we get a copy of “The Church and the Triune God?” – I’d like to read the whole of it.”

Email the Revd Terrie Robinson at the Anglican Communion Office – terrie.robinson(AT)anglicancommunion.org. £5.95 + p&p

Neil
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Neil

Well said, Fr. Mark. It would be much easier to attract the young with the truth of the love of God for all, without being crippled and hindered by those with an absurdly (in the eyes of most peopl) narrow message. However – as with apartheid and its abolition – improving a society/liberating it from oppression is only ever the start. We’ll never have a perfect church or society. There remains the need for the conversion of us all.

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Good luck and God bless Chris, may God bring peace into your life. Thanks for the link Pluralist, I enjoyed it. I’ve just come from a trawl through Jesus’ words for another thread. One thing that struck me is how inclusive Jesus is and how protective of all his charges. Matthew 25:31-46 is actually a direct warning to the arrogantly righteous. Jesus prophesized that when he returned the righteous would answer him at judgement with ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger… Read more »

JPM
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JPM

Fr. Mark is right: so-called “Conservative Evangelicalism” has done enormous damage. Here in the U.S., the Religious Right have managed, by decades of constant repetition, to convince the public that they *are* Christianity. The result, not surprisingly, has been to persuade many that Christianity is something they want no part of. This is reflected in the Barna Group survey that was discussed a little on this site a few weeks back. Barna, an evangelical polling firm, found that young people in the U.S. increasingly see Christianity as judgmental and politicized (http://tinyurl.com/2hnjkd). Even younger evangelical leaders are turning away from the… Read more »

NP
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NP

Mark – liberals have been predicting a fall in evangelical churches for decades yet we have see open, charismatic and conservative evo churches go from strength…… Note in all this AC chaos, starting with TECUSA rejecting the calls of all the Primates of the AC not to “tear the fabric of the communion”, it is all evangelicals (conservative, open and charismatic) who have stated they cannot condone behaviour “incompatible with scripture” as Lambeth 1.10 says. Also, note that it is not just evos who do think think TECUSA has done the wrong thing…… Anyway, the Lambeth Palace bureaucrats are too… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

South Africa 1987 is well before 2003 and well before Gene Robinson was annointed for his role.

That’s just the excuse, the bickering hate mongering has been going on for longer than that, JPM reflects more the truth in this regard.

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

NP: it isn’t “all” evangelicals who are against treating gay people the same way as everyone else, it’s their vociferous (nearly always male) leaders. Perhaps they are badly served by their leadership? Abp Carey, I well remember, predicted the end of all family life if the gay age of consent was lowered from 21, but it hasn’t happened. Unfortunately, the conservative Evangelicals are not well led on this issue – if they had more women in leadership, maybe they would talk more sense on sexuality/ gender issues.

NP
Guest
NP

What the JSC report completely misses is that it is not compromise which will build “unity” in the AC but real, shared conviction on the truth and genuine honesty between leaders and the rest of us in the AC…….see what is requird for genuine fellowship according to an Apostle: 1John1v5-10 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP, What ways do you not walk in the light? I notice that the translation you use does not refer to “deceive ourselves” but “make him a liar”. Interesting, since self deception is a significant problem for all of us, no? Yet you translation avoids the word, making it easy for you to ignore you own self-deception. Here’s something to think about: you see me as walking in darkness, the truth is not in me. I see you the same way! Some would say that is reason to split the Church. I would say that if we both behave in… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

But if we have not fellowship with one another,

we walk not in the light, as He is in the light…

No?

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

NP wrote: 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Ford answered: 10 If we say we have not sinned, we decieve ourselves, and his word is not in us. the Greek: eàn eípåmen oti oux ämartäkamen, pseústän poioûmen autòn, kaì o lógos autoû ouk estin en ämîn. (no Paragraphs in the original ;=) which makes: If we say that we have not sinned, (but) make him lie, and his Word is not in us. Much more direct, isn’t it? So “we decieve ourselves” is not the translation,… Read more »

NP
Guest
NP

Ford says “you see me as walking in darkness, the truth is not in me”

NO – I have never said that, Ford

Please retract

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“NO – I have never said that, Ford”

I’m not Ford, but I’ve heard you say often enough that I’m a deliberate sinner who ignores scripture and lies about what it says. I also belong to the group of people who want to tell God that he’s wrong, that don’t means do. The group of people St Paul and Jesus would never approve of. The group of people Jesus will judge when he returns.

If that’s not saying that the truth is not in me, I don’t know what is!

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

NP, You continually claim I have an agenda, that you obviously link to the “agenda” you believe the faithless heathens who took over TEC have. According to you, liberals do not believe the Scriptures, do not read them, and are faithless. You have called me a liberal. Your continual exhortations that I “have a read” of this or that part of Scripture indicate that you believe that I have never read them or are not familiar with them. You obviously lump me in with the “liberals” you continually deride. You mock my faith, with your “I hope you don’t believe… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Note, that “sins” in the Bible are material, not the sexualizations of 2nd Millennium Academia. The word means “miss” – it’s a sports term (long bows).” Thanks for the clarification, though it negates my haughty pontification on self-deception:-) I’m glad you mention ‘sin’ being our translation of “miss” in Greek. I had read before ages ago, that sin is ‘missing the mark’, and not in some “fluffy New Age” thing, to counter the NPs of the world who would accuse me of that, but in a book on the Orthodox Church, the Real Orthodox. So that is Orthodox Christian teaching.… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
Guest

Please limit comments to a discussion of the JSC report etc.

NP
Guest
NP

The strength of Dr Goddard’s evaulation of the JSC report is found in its detail and fairness. Note he is not a nasty ” Reform” member but on the Fulcrum leadership team….. Ford – pls read Dr Goddard. Think it is counterproductive me writing to you as it leads to you attacking me (or evos in your past?) rather than dealing with your “clobber verses”. I do not want to distract you from those verses…..and if they say you are “walking in the light” and that is fine in your church, then what I think matters nothing. What God thinks… Read more »

Ford elms
Guest
Ford elms

“Think it is counterproductive me writing to you as it leads to you attacking me” I told you all the kinds of things that you have said in the past year that lead me to believe what I said in an earlier post, and which you demanded I retract. Yet again, you ignore the issue. Despite having your own behaviour shown to you, you accuse ME of smearing you! NP, Thomas Rentz is an Evangelical, he and I do not agree, yet we can have a civil conversation, one in which I can learn about Evangelicals, how they think, and… Read more »