Thinking Anglicans

more San Joaquin developments

Updated yet again Monday evening

First, at the Lambeth press conference on Monday, the Archbishop of Canterbury said this, as reported by the Living Church in response to a question about Bishop John-David Schofield:

Regarding the attendance of San Joaquin Bishop John-David Schofield, inhibited by the Presiding Bishop earlier this month, the archbishop said he is “waiting on what comes out of the American House of Bishops’ discussion of that. It’s not something I’ve got a position on yet. At the moment he still has an invitation.”

Second, there are several reports from Episcopal News Service that relate:

San Joaquin: ‘Moving Forward, Welcoming All’ conference to host online audience January 26

and

Province VIII seeks lay representative for vacated Executive Council seat

And then there was this statement from Forward in Faith North America FiF NA President responds to inhibition of Bishop Schofield.

And finally, there was a letter in last week’s Church Times by the Bishop of Horsham, see Why I signed the San Joaquin letter.

Friday evening update

Here is the official ACO page for the Diocese of San Joaquin.

Saturday evening update

Episcopal News Service reports that San Joaquin Standing Committee not recognized as official, Presiding Bishop says.

The full text of the letter she sent to the committee members can be read here (PDF).

Monday evening updates

There are various opinions being expressed about this letter, see:

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Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

Does that mean that, suddenly, the HoB’s decisions will be respected in Canterbury? That would be a step in the right direction.

drdanfee
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drdanfee

The FIFNA letter would be funny except it is so sad, mainly in its blithe and facile presuppositions. Ah, con evo presuppositions, when will we ever be free of their mind-numbing power in all our conversations, which bite into us and rule this or that domain of the human brain and heart out of bounds, even before we have started to explore hot button issues or very much talk things over from various key points of view. FIFNA apparently cannot grasp the simple written notion that the canons focus on a bishop abandoning the communion of TEC – not the… Read more »

Deacon Charlie Perrin
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Deacon Charlie Perrin

“We further must call into question the use of the particular Canon pertaining to the abandonment of the Communion inasmuch as the American Province is not a Communion. That particular designation is reserved for the worldwide expression of Anglicanism.” Bp Ackerman

Here is proof positive that while being gay may be considered a bar to the Episcopacy, being ignorant (or perhaps duplicitous) is not. This man’s rather narrow (if not downright bizarre) interpretation of the term “communion” is a true wonder.

Lapinbizarre
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Lapinbizarre

It’s at moments like reading the Archbishop’s statement on Schofield’s Lambeth invite that one is particularly grateful for Fr. Hagger’s blog, since one’s reaction to reading that “at the moment [Schofield] still has an invitation” would be quite unprintable on TA!

BobinSwPA
Guest
BobinSwPA

Just out of curiousity, how many bishops in the CofE are liberal vs conservative?

It seems to me that the problem in TEC touches on one that will trouble most of Christendom, that of liberal vs conservative theology/people.
Bob

Pluralist
Guest

“Look for a New TV show called Anglican Cops to debut soon”

The detective is Frank Canon: you know, the one who is no higher than his car and is obese.

Alan Harrison
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Alan Harrison

Dr Danfee writes: “Ah, con evo presuppositions”, and repeats references to “con evo” several times. I’m puzzled. FiF is basically an Anglo-Catholic organization, in which there is some debate about the extent to which common cause can be made with evangelicals. (There’s a particularly interesting article in the current issue of New Directions on just this issue, with regard to the church-planting activities of the evangelical Christ Church, Bromley, in the parish of S. Barnabas, Beckenham!) The Bishop of Horsham is an Anglo-Catholic, whose theology is conservative, but not stridently so. I can’t see what 2con evo” positions have todo… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
Guest

Considering who is still invited and how schismatic some of them are, I really don’t understand why Gene Robinson can not be invited. Unless, it’s that old scapegoating victim. It’s much easier to vilify and blame somebody (Eve, gays) if they are not in the room and no one knows them personally. That way you can pretty well say whatever you like about their honesty, capacity, gifts, weaknesses or character traits and no one has to worry about whether there is a dissonance between the allegations and the actual person. Much better to insult gays when there are no acknowledged… Read more »

Cheryl Va. Clough
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Sorry Pluralist

Did you mean obese or obtuse?

Malcolm+
Guest

Why does John-David still have an invitation? After all, the Anglican Communion Office website, correctly, lists the diocese as vacant.

David Bayne
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David Bayne

re “Anglican Cops”

Shouldn’t that be Canon Frank? Or possibly the Revd Canon Dr Frank?………..

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Thanks AH, I do not wish to gloss over the underlying – and possibly tense? – differences between anglo-caths and cons and evos – except that the constant realignment campaign narratives keep collapsing them all together as if either no differences exist, or at least, as if no differences exist that matter to our vexed campaign for a realignment that, pardon my saying so, is continually being preached as both con and evo. (And only occasionally sprinkled with candied bits of anglocath, if ever?) If I were a certain closed sort of anglo-cath believer I would long since have started… Read more »

Viriato da Silva
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Viriato da Silva

“Why does John-David still have an invitation? After all, the Anglican Communion Office website, correctly, lists the diocese as vacant.” Actually, this is premature of the ACO… Not even TEC yet considers the see vacant, and it won’t until Schofield is formally deposed by the House of Bishops. Despite his inhibition, under TEC’s Constitution and Canons he remains Episcopal Bishop of San Joaquin until deposition, and his inhibition (basically a suspension, not a termination) applies only to sacramental etc. acts, not to his mundane administration of the diocese. I’m counting down the days until he gets deposed (ideally, with Duncan… Read more »

Viriato da Silva
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Viriato da Silva

>> re “Anglican Cops”

>> Shouldn’t that be Canon Frank? Or possibly the Revd Canon Dr Frank?………..

Ah, don’t we then mean “Anglican *Keystone* Kops”?

Pluralist
Guest

Obsese. He was a small chap who ran down the road with a gun and could hardly go far. Or start a new series altogether: Canon’s Law.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

RE the Bishop of Horsham’s letter:

As to the good bishop’s pseudo explanation it seems to me that being marginal is not being marginalized.

David Bayne
Guest
David Bayne

There might be a whole series of spin-offs: “Primate Suspect”, “Fort Worth Vice” or (the ABC’s favourite) a revival of “Softly, Softly”).

No more, I promise. I’d hate to be thought frivolous…………………..

poppy tupper
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poppy tupper

in his letter, the bishop of horsham expresses his opposition to marginalisation and his desire that people should be honoured and respected. this is the bisohp who took part in a meeting which took 40 minutes to work out a way in which a woman priest, who was to be present at the ordination of her curate to the priesthood, should not be allowed to lay hands on him at the ordination. the bishop of horsham’s main contribution to was to say that it wasn’t a problem in his area because no priests were allowed to lay on hands, but… Read more »

Tobias Haller
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Tobias Haller

I do wish folks who want to pronounce on the canons would pay due heed to clauses and sentences as well as words. The “abandonment” canon is not about abandonment of “the Communion” full stop, but of the “communion of this Church” — which, as attention to the rest of the canons shows, is a reference to The Episcopal Church — the one governed by the General Convention and with The Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori as Presiding Bishop and Primate. One cannot detach oneself from the authority and discipline of “this Church” and still pretend to be in communion… Read more »

JPM
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JPM

>>>The Bishop of Horsham is an Anglo-Catholic, whose theology is conservative, but not stridently so. His theology is not why he has become so famous lately. >>>I’m not a particular fan of +San Joaquin. In fact, I wrote to FiF protesting at the presence on its website of of a pastoral message from that prelate which read like a party political broadcast on behalf of Likud. This sort of thing is probably why the Bishop of Jerusalem is not so keen on GAFCON. It might be different in other places, but here is the U.S., right wing Christians are very… Read more »

John Henry
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John Henry

“The U.S., right wing Christians are very ‘Pro-Israel,’ because their particular reading of Revelation requires all the Jews in the world to return there. We have churches in this country raising money to fund ‘settlements’ in the Occupied Territories.” – JPM

Spot on. The Episcopal Church supports, through ERD, hospitals and health care for impoverished Palestinians. The Dio. of LA also has a ‘companion diocese’ relationship with the Anglican Diocese of Jerusalem. Another reason why the Bishop of Jerusalem doesn’t want GAFCON to complicate matters.

Caelius Spinator
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Caelius Spinator

“We further must call into question the use of the particular Canon pertaining to the abandonment of the Communion inasmuch as the American Province is not a Communion. That particular designation is reserved for the worldwide expression of Anglicanism.” Bp Ackerman

And to emphasize Father Haller’s point. The abandonment Canon in nearly the exact same language as now dates to c. 1857, well before the first Lambeth Conference.

Prior Aelred
Guest

What Tobias (who is supposed to be on retreat) said! This twisting of facts to suit one’s prejudices is very sad. I can’t help but contrast that with a recent discussion of the restriction on Communion in TEC — those who want to change the current rules are not trying to twist the rules to allow them to do whatever they want, they are advocated changing the current canons. I don’t agree (entirely), but at least they are being honest. But it seems that the ABC will withdraw Bishop Schofield’s Lambeth invitation of the TEC HOB says he is not… Read more »

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

A propos of the Horsham Area “Nuremburg salute”-I wonder what a Roman catholic sacramental theologian would make of that? If there is one reading TA it would be nice to know.

Viriato da Silva
Guest
Viriato da Silva

“…but contrast that with a recent discussion of the restriction on Communion in TEC — those who want to change the current rules are not trying to twist the rules to allow them to do whatever they want, they are advocated changing the current canons. I don’t agree (entirely), but at least they are being honest.” Alas, my dear Prior; it pains me to have to disagree with you. Many advocates of Communion Without Baptism (and perhaps most of the clergy who support this innovation, including several bishops) not only advocate changing the current canons, they plow right ahead and… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Viriato da Silva —
I daresay you are correct that some are violating the canons, but my point (badly expressed) is that they are not saying that the canons say something other than they say (as the schismatics have) — it is all a terrible mess & was intended to be (see the Chapman Memo):
http://frjakestopstheworld.blogspot.com/2007/03/for-those-who-missed-it-chapman-memo.html

poppy tupper
Guest
poppy tupper

perry, i’m neither a roman catholic, nor a theologian, but my guess is that there is an analogy with consecrating the eucharist. every priest who consecrates at a concelebration does so, and the distance of the hand from the host does not diminish the intimacy or the efficacy of the action. similarly, every person present at mass is considered to be participating in a manner appropriate to his/her status. so, even when not formally consecrating, any priest present at the mass is performing a priestly-consecrating function, just as all the laity there are performing a related, but different, lay-consecrating function… Read more »

Viriato da Silva
Guest
Viriato da Silva

My dear Prior — Thank you, I do now understand your distinction, although on a practical level I’m not sure it’s much better to (a) acknowledge the actual meaning of a canon while expressly and intentionally violating it and contradictorily excoriating the conservatives for their own violations of the canons than to (b) twist the interpretation of a canon to suit one’s own agenda. Indeed, imo, the former is arguably worse than the latter; in scenario (b), there may at least plausibly exist some degree of sincerity / wishful thinking in the misinterpretation, on the part of at least some… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

poppy: I’m an old-fashioned Catholic in this respect: I don’t believe every priest present at a concelebration does consecrate. I think that performing the manual actions as well as saying the words is necessary to consecrate. This bizarre way in which concelebrants hold up their hands as if they are consecrating by zapping is, in my opinion, badly thought-out, and only reinforces the impression that they believe they are working a magic trick of some sort. I think there is actually only one consecrator at each Mass, unless the concelebrants each have their own missal and elements. I know the… Read more »

Viriato da Silva
Guest
Viriato da Silva

Perry — Well, I’m only an ex-Roman Catholic and only a wannabe theologian, but my understanding of RC teaching on operation of the sacraments is not consistent with the analysis you articulate: “so, even when not formally consecrating, any priest present at the mass is performing a priestly-consecrating function, just as all the laity there are performing a related, but different, lay-consecrating function (‘answering the mass’ in the old terms).” IIRC, in the RC view one of the required “ingredients” for an effective/valid sacrament is “proper form.” A priest merely being present at Mass is not deemed to be performing… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest

Interesting discussion about baptism and communion.

And if the present troubles were really about theology rather than power, that’s what we’d be arguing about.

But we’re not.

Virginia Gal
Guest
Virginia Gal

“I do wish folks who want to pronounce on the canons would pay due heed to clauses and sentences as well as words. The “abandonment” canon is not about abandonment of “the Communion” full stop, but of the “communion of this Church” It is a failing of our society that people will not go to the original source when they feel that a concept is incorrect. And a little knowledge of history, and the nature of the Anglican Communion would be in order. The Episcopal Church (in the USA) is an independent church – created as a matter of practicality… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

The traditional understanding of order and “doing” the liturgy means that all members of the Body of Christ participate in the liturgy according to their order. This is true whether they are vested or not, perform manual acts or not, etc. Thus it is “appropriate” that they should vest & act according to their order. On a practical level this frequently isn’t convenient, but that is the traditional theology (& preferable to the later corruption of “Me saying my Mass” — IMHO).

David H.
Guest

Virginia asked, “I don’t know why some people have such a difficult time understanding the nature of TEC. Particularly those who graduated from an Episcopal seminary.”

To be willing to understand the nature of TEC, one must first respect it.. So it depends on *which* seminary, methinks 😉 Those which provide for the instruction of EPISCOPAL priests don’t seem to have a problem in this regard (e.g. GTS, EDS, etc…). But those schools who exist primarily to graduate students who toe the “conservative” party line of the Christian Right certainly *do* (e.g. TESM).

Perry Butler
Guest
Perry Butler

The point I was trying to get at is this-does the Bishop of Horsham think that allowing a woman priest to stretch out her hand rather than put a hand on a head makes any real difference? Afterall in the old days at anglican ordinations and consecrations there were so many participants that some of them did simply strech out their hands, and everyone then assumed they were participating with the Bishop in the ordination. Does the Bishop of Horsham think that a woman priest vested as a priest participating in the ordination by waiving a hand is NOT participating… Read more »

John Henry
Guest
John Henry

“I imagine this is sacramental nonsense and therefore not a very sensible way of dealing with the situation if the object of the execise is to keep the bishop “unsullied”.Perhaps the Bishop thinks this somehow means he’s not participating with a woman priest in a sacramental action, but i would judge he is.I wonder what his F in F friends make of this “compromise”? I just think its rather theologically odd -and doesn’t really solve the Bishops problem,though I think he thinks it does! Posted by: Perry Butler on Monday, 28 January 2008 at 7:55pm GMT” I am with Perry… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Prior Aelred: but acting according to one’s order doesn’t mean that every priest has to be a consecrator at every Mass they attend. Traditionally, the clergy assisted according to their order by being prayerful in choir. I must say I find that way to do it far preferable than standing around the altar in a big bunch of gormless-looking priests feeling rather de trop. I know one RC religious community where each of the priests draws a Mass stipend every day for merely lolling around the altar and waving his hands as a concelebrant at the community Mass (try telling… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Fr Mark — Actually, I don’t approve of concelebration except for special circumstances such as ordinations & the Chrism Mass (we don’t do it here — in fact, the assisting priest at the daily Eucharist wears a deacon stole — definitely not post-Vatican II PC) & Roman monasteries will always keep concelebrations as long as there are Mass stipends (sacristans like them much better than setting up all those Low Masses) — but I was talking about order, but vesture — theologically, the members of the Body “do” the liturgy according to their order, regardless of where they stand or… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Prior Aelred: sounds fair enough!