Thinking Anglicans

Bishop Duncan visits London

Updated further Wednesday evening

There was a press conference yesterday, at All Souls, Langham Place. You can read all about it at Episcopal Life which has Former Pittsburgh bishop warns Church of England traditionalists against ‘complacency’ written by me.

Toby Cohen of the Church of England Newspaper was also there. His report on Religious Intelligence is titled Deposed Bishop issues warning to Church of England.

Anglican Mainstream has a transcript of part of the press conference, at Bishop Bob Duncan on recognition of new province in North America.

Maria Mackay of Christian Today has Deposed bishop warns traditionalists against ‘illiberal takeover’.

Anglican Mainstream has now added transcripts of further portions of the press conference:

First, his opening statement: Thanks, a report and a warning – Bishop Duncan’s statement to the press.

Second, some of the initial answers to questions: Questions to Bishop Bob Duncan -1: on what could happen in the UK, the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Windsor Continuation Group.

Third, more answers to questions: Questions to Bishop Bob Duncan 2:on Sour Grapes, Catholic Order and Martyrdom.

Ruth Gledhill has posted video of part of the conference, see her blog at Bob Duncan: Over-stressed, over here and over?

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Cheryl Va.
12 years ago

About 20 parishes in Pittsburgh remaining with the TEC is fantastic. That is a viable community.

My prayers have been answered that the reforms that TEC and others have taken now have sufficient critical mass of supporters.

It’s going to be fun to watch the conservatives have to pretend to be genuinely loving whilst continuing their accusational repression strategies. The dissonance between their words and their conduct will become more and more apparent. Especially now that there is a viable alternative which will bring to light the paucity of their conduct.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

What a lovely picture of the one-time bishop of Pittsburgh! And one should not be too surprised at the venue of his secret meeting with FOCA at All Soul’s Langham Place – the very same place that spawned the ‘sola-Scriptura’ phenomenon within the latter-day Church of England. One hopes he doesn’t get an open invitation to Lambeth Palace. But then, why should he? He no longer represents any diocese within TEC, and has not yet been accepted formally as a bishop in any other part of the Communion, so why should he? I doubt that Bob will be asked to… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

“Noting that the GAFCON primates planned to meet again before the end of 2008, Duncan said that the Common Cause Partnership, which he said now includes 30 bishops, 800 clergy, 700 parishes and about 100,000 regular Sunday worshippers, would submit a proposal for such a province to them.”

Isn’t it the case that a goodly number of those bishops, clergy and parishes were never a part of the Anglican Communion, being part of the Reformed Episcopal Church and other long-separated offshoots from TEC?

Neel Smith
Neel Smith
12 years ago

Minor correction to TA’s headline : that’s “former bishop Duncan”. (Compare the linked headline from episcopalchurch.org.)

jnwall
jnwall
12 years ago

Isn’t it a wonder, and a blessing, to see how these Christians love one another?

Canon Gary Waddingham
Canon Gary Waddingham
12 years ago

It is so nice that Bob Duncan is keeping homophobia and misogyny going while being apparently quiet on other things like, say, the global financial crisis in which millions are being pushed under the poverty line. Jesus must be proud.

David Malloch
David Malloch
12 years ago

“Minor correction to TA’s headline : that’s “former bishop Duncan”.

Absolute nonsense. Bob Duncan IS a bishop!! What ever his canonical status in TEC, Duncan is a bishop in the curch of God and remains so; his episcopal orders are not done away with just because he has been deposed by TEC.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

““My hope is that people will be so determined to spread the word of Christ that we will find new ways to commend the Gospel to people.””

So, let me get this straight (no pun intended). Is the Archdeacon of Hamstead saying that scheming, lies, sneaking about, misrepresentation, historical revisionism, smearing those one sees as outcasts, reviling those who disagree with you, falsely portraying one’sself as oppressed while seeking to oppress others, and hypocrisy are “new ways” to commend the Gospel to people? Indeed, SOMEONE is preaching a “different Gospel”.

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

I am still shocked by the Reform comment..we will play the legal game to promote the Gospel…see the Church Times. Love your enemies and pray for them and sue them to the furthest extent of the law? I would have so much more admiraton for Bishop Duncan if he had left with integrity and without the property. A comparison of Bishop Duncan to Athanasius by the Egyptian Bishop is odd..when one considers there is much disquiet amongst traditionalists as he ordains women priests. Ron the Sola Scriptura movement began in the Church of England with Cranmer, when he abandoned the… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
12 years ago

Ford Your postings of the last few weeks have been excellent, this one is no exception. Robert, the kind of thinking and justifications we are seeing now have been seen before. It’s what typically happens in the break-away sects. Puritanical thinking without moderation leads to extremism, and eventually the dissonance between claiming to have “the answers” and rubbing shoulders with others who think differently becomes too much for them. Don’t worry about the large numbers now. The conduct that Ford has noted will continue and their reputations will be tainted accordingly and souls will move away as the more gentle… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

“Duncan stressed that arrangements with the Province of the Southern Cone were not intended to be permanent, and he strongly advocated the establishment of a second Anglican province in North America.”

Oh, sure: let’s have a second (3rd, 4th, 5th, ad infinitum?) province for EVERY place on the globe, all w/ competing (if not mutually-exclusive) ideologies, theologies, ecclesiologies, and ethical codes!

Now, what all of the above scenario has anything to do w/ being “Anglican” is not clear to me…

Lord have mercy!

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Duncan & Co. offer a palpable realignment spin story, remarkable. It’s like touring a conservative creationist dinosaurs walked the earth park excursion. These Home Invasion Gangs – having raided TEC ( plus Canada, and eyes on England recently?) call any principled, legal, canonical, or procedural non-conservative-realignment resistance or response – foul. Let she who has ears hear what is or is not fair and godly in this realignment mess. Now Duncan preaches that all they want is a little piece of historic Anglican leeway that they can utterly call their own – unshared, indeed unshare-able – so sanctified. A new… Read more »

WSJM
12 years ago

Of course it is David Malloch’s post that is “absolute nonsense,” or at least “mostly nonsense.” It is true that the general opinion in Anglicanism is that holy orders are indelible. The actual position of canon law in The Episcopal Church (US), to the best of my recollection, does not make reference to “indelibility” but simply provides that if a deposed cleric is reinstated, he or she is simply reinstated and not reordained. For all practical purposes, however, a deposed cleric may not exercise any of the functions of his or her order, and would not be recognized as entitled… Read more »

David Malloch
David Malloch
12 years ago

“He was subject to the doctrine and discipline of The Episcopal Church, and no one else in the Church of God has legitimate authority over his status. He is a former bishop. Period.” Well, I suppose that it should come as no great surprise that a body such a TEC shows such scant regard for the indellible character of Holy Orders that it honestly believes it can somehow terminate them. The fact is that if he was ever a bishop, he remains one now! Despite the jumped up arrogance of TEC if it really believes it has the power to… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

“Absolute nonsense. Bob Duncan IS a bishop!! What ever his canonical status in TEC, Duncan is a bishop in the curch of God and remains so; his episcopal orders are not done away with just because he has been deposed by TEC.”

Really? Is a priest who is unfrocked still a priest? If TEC ordained and consecrated Duncan, and they have now deposed him, under what authority does he remain a bishop?

Nom de Plume
Nom de Plume
12 years ago

“If being a Bishop = being recognised by TEC then that might explain TEC lack of respect for the rest of the Anglican Communion – most of whom will continue to recognise Duncan’s orders” David, Duncan’s orders were conferred by TEC, and now they have been removed by TEC. Deposition says nothing about the indelible, ontological character of the orders. Rather, it renders them null and void juridically, for all practical purposes. I fail to see how one can accept orders from a Church, and swear canonical obedience to that church, and then deny the legitimacy of the deposition whilst… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

The Common cause claims 30 bishops..that would mean 698 if TEC had the same ratio! 6 of the 30 are Reformed Episcopal..whose orders have not been recognised by the Anglican Communion since Lambeth 1880. As for 100,000 communicants ..there are serious challenges to these figures. Some of the participating denominations do not even ordain women to the diaconate..the REC recently revived the office of deaconess…but the three US dioceses all have deacons and Pittsburgh has women priests, as do the churches under Uganda, Kenya and Rwanda. FIF also accepts women deacons. If Bishop Duncan’s fantasy came true and the ACC… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

If the ACC recognises this new North American province , then it should recognise the Church of England in South Africa, a Church which has stood apart from the Church of the Province of Southern Africa since 1870 and whose orders are recognised by the Anglican Communion. So then there would be two Anglican provinces in South Africa. Then Sydney could gather together the churches it has planted in other Australian doceses and form a parallel province there…the Reformed Anglican church of Australia. Then the Diocese of Nelson ( New Zealand) which has set up its own Theological College and… Read more »

David Waller
David Waller
12 years ago

“Mr Duncan may be a bishop ontologically, but juridically he is a layman.”

If he has abandoned the communion of the church, then, juridically, he doesn’t really exist??

JPM
JPM
12 years ago

>>>The Common cause claims 30 bishops..that would mean 698 if TEC had the same ratio!

Why settle for a mere priesthood of all believers when one can have an episcopate of all believers?

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
12 years ago

Re Bp Duncan, George Will, American conservative columnist, has a column in this morning’s Washington Post about Our Bob ex-Pitts. He – Will – seems to have swallowed the Duncan party line about widespread apostacy on doctrinal matters and takes a poke at poor old Bp. Pike [are any of his books even in print?]. I would link but don’t subscribe to the electronic version of WPost.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“Why stop at undermining TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada?” But, to quote a recent local play, “The smugly selfrighteous can never work on a team, Stock.” Why do you think it is that all these splinter groups can’t get together into one denomination, even though they left the for the same reasons? There’s always a finer point of “orthodoxy” you can split over, and it isn’t about Truth or being good Christians, it’s about being right, righter than everybody else, and you keep finding finer and finer points to disagree on. That’s what “orthodoxy” is all about. My… Read more »

WSJM
12 years ago

David Malloch responds: “Well, I suppose that it should come as no great surprise that a body such a TEC shows such scant regard for the indellible character of Holy Orders that it honestly believes it can somehow terminate them. The fact is that if he was ever a bishop, he remains one now! Despite the jumped up arrogance of TEC if it really believes it has the power to “unordain”. I’m happy you were willing to respond to me, David. I’m a bit unhappy that you did so without actually reading what I wrote. TEC does not show scant… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Cynthia,

Here it is,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/17/AR2008101702529.html

The Wachington Post is registration only.

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Cynthi,

Reading it, I see that Wills manages to put “traditional church teachings” and the novel “core doctrines” in the same phrase ;=)

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

Stop press…Forward in Faith are supporting Bishop Duncan as a champion of orthodoxy ….a bishop who ordains women priests..now that has to be positive!

Peter of Westminster
Peter of Westminster
12 years ago

Here is the Will essay reposted on Real Clear Politics:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/the_shrinking_episcopal_church.html

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

Robert Ian Williams, re your statement: “Then the Diocese of Nelson (New Zealand) which has set up its own Theological College and recognised Gafcon, could form a new province – the Reformed Anglican Church in New Zealand.” This demonstrates, Robert, your misunderstanding of your former N.Z. Diocese’s significance to the Anglican Church in New Zealand. Since Bishop R. Elena’s celebrated ‘thumbs-down’ press interview in the UK after his limited particpation at the Lambeth Conference, I don’t think many New Zealand Anglican candidates would be tempted to become serious students at his Sydney-sponsored Bible College in the Nelson Diocese. I do… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

What George Will misses is that Duncan et al. are really HOPING to establish an Anglicanism with a “pope” and a “Vatican”…and so prevent anyone else from doing what they have done.

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

Ron, will you stop being obsessed with me and concentrate at the matter at hand. Could a NZ diocese secede like Pittsburgh? Who owns the property CPNZ or Nelson? I say its time to set this out in black and white, before there is a pre-emptive strike…and there are those in Nelson who would want this.

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

G Wills article is interesting. Completely unable to avoid the keen-toothed jaw traps laid for his thinking by typical realignment Anglican presuppositions. Will expertly stays right on the surface – breezes past all the difficulties involved in his spin doctored presuppositions: 1. biblicisms, 2. church life tolerance-inclusion to the loudly spin doctored point of alleged church life incoherence (do any of these talking heads ever, ever, ever actually spend much time in real parish communities which have managed included queer couples parenting? One guesses, not), 3. alleged realignment sadness that those poor benighted queer folks got caught as the leading… Read more »

Malcolm+
12 years ago

Of course, were we to follow Bob Duncan’s “logic,” we must then ask: why only one alternative province? Why not just recognize the various disjointed and squabbling subsets as a province of it’s own? The Traditional Anglican Communion can become a province. The Reformed Episcopal Church can become a province. The various other independent Anglican groupings and grouplets can each be their own province. Every online ecclesial entity that claims some measure of Anglicanism in it’s origins can be a province of the Anglican Communion. Come one. Come all. Why settle for the priesthood of all believers – or even… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

“It is in fact a kind of totalitarian political agenda: that is to say you will do it our way or you will at best be silent or at worst we will banish you.’ – former Bishop Ropbert Duncan This statement, in answer to a question about how the former Bishop of Pittsburgh sees the present stand of TEC and the Communion on his deposition, seems, in the circumstances, to pertain more appositely to the stance of his own party (CANA, et al) to the presence of gays and women in the world-wide Anglican Communion of Churches. Had it not… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“…to pertain more appositely to the stance of his own party (CANA, et al) to the presence of gays and women in the world-wide Anglican Communion of Churches.” As far as I can see, conservatives only see this as wrong when it is not them behaving in a dictatorial manner. Of course, they don’t see themselves as being dictatorial. They are persecuted victims valiantly defending the Gospel against the heathen hoardes, so not dictators at all. In fact, it seems they do not recognize, wilfully or through delusion, the influence they have in the corridors of power. Perhaps they think… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Duncans’ Q&A transcripts are a fine, fine demonstration of how (A) he already possesses the concepts which would serve as tools to continue to exist comfortably inside TEC and indeed other provinces, plus (B)how adamantly he refuses or declines to apply certain concepts to hot button issues which he needs to use as his excuse for repeating false witness against, say, queer folks, and for misbehaving. (The real reason for his TEC deposition is not his closed-minded belief system, but his shenanigans to force people to choose for or against his peculiar small tent diocesan realignments.) In some of his… Read more »

Dan
Dan
12 years ago

“Duncan et al. are really HOPING to establish an Anglicanism with a “pope” and a “Vatican”…and so prevent anyone else from doing what they have done.”
And how do you square that statement with Duncan’s and the ACN’s commitment that each parish will own and control its own property? So long as that is the case, how would any local congregation be prevented from splittig?

Dan
Dan
12 years ago

“Really? Is a priest who is unfrocked still a priest? If TEC ordained and consecrated Duncan, and they have now deposed him, under what authority does he remain a bishop?” Under the authority of the Province of the Southern Cone which has received him into that branch of the AC. And there are any number of other provinces more than willing to do likewise. Likewise, his deposition failed to comply with the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church. There are any number of diocesans in the US who still consider Robert Duncan to be a bishop within TEC precisely… Read more »

Prior Aelred
12 years ago

I suppose that eventually there will be some sort of formal acknowledgment of the of the schism which already exists (& not issuing Lambeth invites to CANA could be a sign of this) — after all, if the Primates won’t even receive Communion with each other, there really is no Anglican “Communion”, is there?

“Franchise” — I so dislike this word — does “Bob Pittsburgh” (his usage — not mine nor that of TEC) really think Anglicanism is like McDonald’s?

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

Dan:

Unfortunately, what Duncan et al. say and what they eventually do may turn out to be two different things. Certainly they want an Anglicanism in which a strong central magisterium makes the rules for everyone.

And, if Southern Cone is out of communion with TEC, how can it accept a priest or bishop from that province without re-ordaining or consecrating him?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“And how do you square that statement with Duncan’s and the ACN’s commitment that each parish will own and control its own property?” And how do you square this statement with any kind of Catholic ecclesiology, much less the idea that a church and other parish buildings are a parish’s “own property”? First, we are not congregationalists. Second, buildings are set aside for God, not just to be some place where the congregation gets to gether every Sunday. If this is your understanding of property issues, well and good, but taking this attitude removes your right to use words like… Read more »

Dan
Dan
12 years ago

Pat O’Neill
That is too easy a question: As you folks are so fond of reminding everyone, each of the provinces is an independent church. TEC has no business telling the SC who can and can’t minster in and for that province nor what the criteria should be to be eligible to serve. In addition, don’t forget that Bp. Duncan was received into the SC before he was deposed.

Dan
Dan
12 years ago

Gee Ford. For a church that confiscated the properties of the Roman church from the outset yet still claims to be a part of the caholic church, how do you square your very existence with catholic ecclesiology?

Prior Aelred
12 years ago

Of course TEC has no business telling an independent church who can & cannot minister in it — but the Constitutions & Canons of the Southern Cone do define its boundaries and jurisdiction — they do not include anyplace in North America (&, in addition, Bishop Schofield is over the mandatory retirement age for bishops of the Southern Cone).

BillyD
BillyD
12 years ago

“In addition, don’t forget that Bp. Duncan was received into the SC before he was deposed.”

And don’t forget, he wasn’t free to do so under the canons.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“TEC has no business telling the SC who can and can’t minster in and for that province” Dan, it’s really simple. TEC can’t tell the Southern Cone what to do in the Southern Cone. It has every right to tell the Southern Cone what to do on American soil. In fact, any bishop from outside TEC must be permitted to function within TEC’s territory. See, that’s a very old tenet of the faith, goes way back, before your crowd redefined ‘orthodox’ and ‘traditional’. Now, you might have very good reasons for opposing this principle. But, if you do, that’s one… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“how do you square your very existence with catholic ecclesiology?”

I’m not about to swim the Tiber for a set of doctrines I believe are wrong just because a whoremongering, adulterous, murderous son of a usurper did something I do not agree with. It’s called being willing to accept the failings of others, having, as I do, failings myself. That’s something conservatives seem unable to comprehend.

Simon Sarmiento
12 years ago

These comments about the change of control in England at the time of the Reformation are irrelevant to the topic of Pittsburgh and Bishop Duncan. I am not approving any more comments along those lines.

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