Thinking Anglicans

reports of the Swedish consecrations

There are now a number of English language reports available:

The Local Sweden’s first lesbian bishop consecrated in Uppsala

Episcopal News Service SWEDEN: Lesbian priest ordained as Lutheran bishop of Stockholm

Canadian Press Sweden’s Lutheran church ordains first openly lesbian bishop

Bishop David Hamid’s blog, Eurobishop New Bishop of Stockholm Consecrated (Church of Sweden)

Earlier reports here.

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Spirit of Vatican II
Spirit of Vatican II
11 years ago

20 years ago this might have been “shocking” at least for bien pensants. But now to be “shocked” at it is merely to show oneself childish and backward.

Spirit of Vatican II
Spirit of Vatican II
11 years ago

I do have some misgivings about the children of lesbian couples — who are their fathers?

Fr John E. Harris-White
Fr John E. Harris-White
11 years ago

God Bless the lutheran church in Sweden. May the conversations with the American Episcopal church be Blessed, and together lead the Christian church along the path to the future where all God’s children are Blessed, whatever their sex or gender orientation.May the new Bishops, their partners, and the young son be richly Blessed by Our Lord

Fr John

Brant-in-LA
Brant-in-LA
11 years ago

SofVII, why not seek out a lesbian couple, get acquainted, and then ask who the father of their children is? I’ll bet they’ve found the same solutions that infertile heterosexual couples use. More importantly, by becoming acquainted with the couple and family, you’ll discover that (like the Saints of God in the old children’s hymn) they’re “just folk like me.” You’ll relax then. God bless.

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
11 years ago

Spirit

“I do have some misgivings about the children of lesbian couples — who are their fathers?”

The same kind of people who father all the other children that are being fostered or adopted by straight couples.

Or they may be one of the partners’ own children from a previous marriage.

David | Dah•veed
David | Dah•veed
11 years ago

I think it was more a question of ignorance. Not an inquiry regarding the paternal biological donor, but who was serving as “the father” in the lives of the children of lesbians. Because we all know that children who do not have fathers are some how deficient when compared to those who do!

Sheesh!!

Jerry Hannon
Jerry Hannon
11 years ago

“I do have some misgivings about the children of lesbian couples — who are their fathers?” Spirit of Vatican II Is that important? In some cases the child was adopted; in other cases, such as with infertile heterosexual couples, there was a sperm donor. There are probably other options I am not thinking of right now. More importantly, is the child being well cared for by his/her heterosexual parents, or homosexual parents, regardless of whether the child is born to one/both of the parents, or adopted? I was a single father of a seven year old daughter, after my first… Read more »

Carl
11 years ago

Brant-in-LA

That is the most perfect answer that I can imagine.

Carl

Ed Tomlinson
11 years ago

‘or they maybe one of the partner’s children from a previous marriage’

My what wonderful standards to expect from those claiming to be Bishops! It really is incredible…

But what are biblical standards of living for Christians and especially Christian leaders as compared to just blessing all and any lifestyle choice?!

JCF
JCF
11 years ago

TBTG! 😀

peterpi
peterpi
11 years ago

Deo Gratias and Mazel Tov! God bless the Swedish Lutheran Church indeed! May it grow and prosper.
To the alleged Spirit of Vatican II,
I think the first answer to your question is “none of your business”. Further, as Erika and Brant point out, there are numerous paths open to lesbian couples who want to have children.
Hmmm, how many microseconds will it take for ACNA and ++Akinola to request alternative oversight for offended Swedes?

Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

I suppose one could mention that we are all blessed with the very same ‘Heavenly Father’.

drdanfee
drdanfee
11 years ago

These days blessings pop up all round us, right in the midst of the dissers and the antigay campaigners – thank goodness I’ve lived long enough to see Bishop Eva and Bishop Gene, at least, open, honest, giving, right out in public. One could hardly imagine such conscientious believer freedoms, responsibilities, witnessing; growing up in the USA Bible Belt states.

Bravo, Brava.

BillyD
11 years ago

“‘or they maybe one of the partner’s children from a previous marriage’

My what wonderful standards to expect from those claiming to be Bishops! It really is incredible…”

Hear, hear! How dare a Bishop be divorced and remarried…or marry a divorcee…or have a marriage annulled…or marry someone who had a marriage annulled…or be a widow…or marry a widow…

Really, Father, you seem a little quick to assume the worst in your eagerness to chide.

Ed Tomlinson
11 years ago

Well let us see what the bible says (apologies for those of you who hold this work in contempt and see no reason to do anything with it other than interpret it according to a ‘feeling’ based on modern culture) 1 TImothy: If a man desires the position of a bishop he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; So BillyD- sorry but your scenarios covering divorce are not really on according to the bible. It does not say the husband of one… Read more »

toby forward
11 years ago

‘But what are biblical standards of living for Christians and especially Christian leaders as compared to just blessing all and any lifestyle choice?!’ In my experience, both from my own life and talking to others, not many of us make ‘lifestyle choices’. This is especially true of people who have been involved in divorce, remarriage, bringing up their own and other people’s children. Most of the time, we don’t choose our lives, but we respond to what life throws at us and we do the best we can, with the help of God and those who care for us. I… Read more »

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
11 years ago

Ed
Before you start to foam at the mouth – I did not say that Eva Brunne’s child is the biological child from a prior marriage of either Bishop Brunne or her partner (which, as Billy points out, might mean widowhood, not divorce).

I have absolutely no idea how this couple came to be parents.

I have answered Spirit’s question about how lesbian couples in general can end up rearing children. So please, accusations about the moral standards of bishops are completely irrelevant here.

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
11 years ago

Ed “except you then seem to overlook the strange notion that somebody once married and able to have children -chooses (despite evidence that they can be in a heterosexual relationship) to enter a homosexual union which is also contrary to God’s word” This is a bit off topic, but there is nothing strange about gay people having married before they realised they were gay, or because the succumbed to the pressure of society, or because they simply could not accept even for themselves who they are. They could then end up divorced or widowed like any other heterosexual couple. The… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

“Whilst I would always want to be gracious, loving and accepting of everyone” – Ed Tomlinson –

You could have fooled me, Ed!

‘everyone’ I expect, except women and gays!

Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

“But what are biblical standards of living for Christians and especially Christian leaders as compared to just blessing all and any lifestyle choice?! ” – Ed Tomlinson –

Ed, for your info; These Biblical standards:

‘(Jesus) replied: Who are my mother and my brothers? …Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of God, that person is my brother, sister and mother” ‘ The word father simply is not mentioned here, perhaps because Jesus was more conscious of the primary paternal importance of the Fatherhood of God.

BillyD
11 years ago

“The widow situation would be fine….except you then seem to overlook the strange notion that somebody once married and able to have children -chooses (despite evidence that they can be in a heterosexual relationship) to enter a homosexual union…”

That’s not strange at all. Among other scenarios, lots of gay people do not “own” their identity until later in life, and may enter heterosexual marriages as a way of “curing” themselves, or because of family pressure.

Fr John E. Harris-White
Fr John E. Harris-White
11 years ago

Why o why cannot Christian folk stop wanting to investigate the detailed living arrangements of other people. Please respect that other folk may live differently to you, because that is how life worked out for them. God walks with us, and so often opens up for us new living which fulfills our wholeness in Him. It may not be your choice, those who investigate others lives. But it is the choice of a loving God, working through those peoples lives. Enabling them to become whole in His sight, and used in His service. So hands off this couple. I too… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
11 years ago

Quoting particular Bible verses in translation is dodgy at best. We clearly know from available scholarship that none of the ancient near eastern cultures had a neatly equivalent word for today’s vocabulary, not to mention the biological and social science which stands behind the words. Yes, ancient near eastern cultures were variously familiar with many different sorts of same sex behavior and life. Three horrific forms were especially well known: (1) warriors raping conquered men and youth, (2) sex exploitations of male slaves by owners and friends, (3) temple/grove “sacred” prostitutes. Conflating any of these three with modern queer folks… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
11 years ago

“… but in the end it diminishes deity and gospel…”

So it does!

Tobias Haller
11 years ago

The tragedy is, DrDanF, that since Augustine anyway, the west has been plagued with the notion that the “universe at hand” is simply not as it ought to be, which offers a neat way to avoid any data that might actually be at our disposal in favor of unrealised (and unrealisable) idealistic hopes and dreams. That this worldview is not one Jesus would have comprehended (‘the kingdom is among you’) is bypassed in the interests of exalting some of what is “natural” over and against other things equally “natural.”

Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife” – Biblical quote by Ed. tomlinson – Presumably Ed, if the Bible is to be taken as literally as you suggest, I think you would agree that the words “must be” apply equally to the clause “the husband of one wife”. In this case, the Bishops of the Church of Rome, which you seem to idealise, are not being biblical – and are therefore not being as Christian as you, yourself. As Doctor Dan has already suggested – biblical literalism gets us all nowhere, and cannot be used to… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
11 years ago

People like Tomlinson simply need to be told that the problem is their approach to the bible. There is simply no need for any more argument. Accept that the Bible is nothing more than a document of its time, written by humans, and reflective of the mores and values of the time and culture in which it was written, all of which are undoubtedly so unless one holds a belief position seeing the words on paper as something more than they actually are. This, though, is the problem some liberal Christians have. They try and hold on to the bible… Read more »

Spirit of Vatican II
Spirit of Vatican II
11 years ago

I asked a question about the children of lesbian couples and got nothing but emotive responses such as: “I think the first answer to your question is “none of your business”.

I don’t like the idea of anonymous sperm donors (or the idea of surrogate mothers who hire out their wombs for pay and then hand the baby over, perhaps to a male gay couple), and I am surprised that everyone here seems so much at home with that idea. Lesbian adoption, on the other hand, seems to me a worthy and Christian commitment.

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
11 years ago

Spirit “I asked a question about the children of lesbian couples and got nothing but emotive responses such as….” I resent that. I gave you a perfectly polite and factual response. I hadn’t mentioned sperm donors or surrogate mothers. It is possible to object to those, but you then also have to object to them for heterosexual couples. This is a worthy but different debate and not part of this thread. Aside: Yesterday’s Sunday Times carried an article about research according to which children of lesbian couples tend to do better than children of conventional parents. http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6917212.ece Let’s not forget… Read more »

BillyD
11 years ago

“I asked a question about the children of lesbian couples and got nothing but emotive responses such as: “I think the first answer to your question is “none of your business”.”

That’s not so much an emotive response as it is a statement of fact. Open, uninvited speculation about other people’s private lives – how and under what conditions they conceived their children – just doesn’t seem to fall within your job description. Or anybody else’s.

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