Thinking Anglicans

Archbishop of Sydney proposes ‘Distinctive Co-existence’ for ACANZP

sydneyanglicans.net reports: Archbishop presents proposal for NZ Anglican future.

Archbishop [of Sydney] Glenn Davies has addressed some of the leaders of the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia (ACANZP), proposing ‘Distinctive Co-existence’ as a solution to the issues facing the Church after their Synod’s decision to allow the blessings of same gender relationships….

…The essence of the Archbishop’s proposal was what he called ‘Distinctive Co-existence’, modelled on the jurisdiction of Anglican Churches in continental Europe.

“It is interesting that within Europe there are two overlapping Anglican Churches: the Diocese of Gibraltar in Europe under the jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Convocation of Episcopal Churches in Europe under the jurisdiction of the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church (TEC).  Each has differing constitutions and canons, yet they share the same Anglican heritage. Could not the model of continental Europe provide a new way forward for Aotearoa and Polynesia?”

The full text of the archbishop’s proposal is available here.

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Simon WRichardEdward PrebblePaul PowersRoderick Gillis Recent comment authors
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andy gr
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andy gr

I can confirm the arrangement works pretty well in Paris, where the episcopal cathedral coexists with 7 C of E churches. But there every local church owns its own property – I don’t know if that’s the case in Australasia.

Alan T Perry
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Alan T Perry

According to Abp Davies, “North America saw the defrocking of priests and the confiscation of property….” He clearly does not know the facts.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

As a member of ACANZP, I particularly noticed this paragraph from Archbishop Davis’ speech: “The dissenting churches from Christchurch and elsewhere cannot in good conscience remain in ACANZP, despite the gracious offer of alternative oversight from Polynesian bishops. The problem is that these brothers and sisters cannot continue to be a part of a Church which in their understanding has changed its Canons to allow the blessing of “The dissenting churches from Christchurch and elsewhere cannot in good conscience remain in ACANZP, despite the gracious offer of alternative oversight from Polynesian bishops.” The phrase “same-sex couples living in sinful relationships”… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

Apologies for the wrongly worded paragraph of my statement immediately above. The paragraph should read:

“The dissenting churches from Christchurch and elsewhere cannot in good conscience remain in ACANZP, despite the gracious offer of alternative oversight from Polynesian bishops. The problem is that these brothers and sisters cannot continue to be a part of a Church which in their understanding has changed its Canons to allow the blessing of same-sex couples living in sinful relationships. Yet these brothers and sisters are still Anglican, and recognised as such by most Anglicans around the world.”

Richard
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Richard

And when does this stop? ACANZP would become two overlapping provinces. (Although Abp Davies doesn’t state it, presumably the “orthodox” group would affiliate with Sydney, a structure similar his example of Europe.) What happens when that group decides that Eucharistic vestments are important, and the Sydney adherants disagree? Another split? In the US, there are dozens of expressions of Anglicanism, some of which want nothing to do with each other. Is that something that New Zealand wants to embark upon? I don’t think the archbishop’s plan is wrong in all respects, but if his ambitions are anything like his predecessor’s,… Read more »

Richard Grand
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Richard Grand

The things that people will do to escape those horrible gays.

Victoriana
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Victoriana

This would be a very fine proposal indeed, were it put forward by anyone other than the Archbishop of Sydney. ACANZP itself already has an overlapping multi provincial structure, although again I don’t think Europe is exactly the right model to be invoking as something to follow in New Zealand. We can say for certain that none of the four jurisdictions in Europe claim the others to be preaching a false gospel. The churches planted out of Sydney in the last twenty years exist precisely on that ground — that a false gospel is preached in other Australian (and New… Read more »

CRS
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CRS

The American Convocation in Europe (TEC) consists of a dozen parishes and several missions and other efforts. The Diocese in Europe (CofE) consists of around 300 parishes, in the largest diocese in the AC. They are ‘overlapping’ for reasons that have nothing to do with the present crises facing anglicanism. Not sure any of this affects the usefulness of pointing to Europe, but it does bear noting. The proximity of the latter to England and the large number of British citizens working or holidaying in Europe makes for a different demographic than the former, in my experience. But how this… Read more »

CRS
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CRS

Just checked: nine parishes in the Convocation (plus nine missions).

FrDavidH
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FrDavidH

Clearly, those Anglicans who wish to live in the 16th Century should support Mr Davies in his desperate proposal. I believe gay people weren’t tolerated in that period and witches were tested by ducking stools. If Sydney Diocese is a model of Christian charity, God help us.

Phil Groves
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Phil Groves

This is the ‘agree to disagree’ solution so antithetical to the gospel and opposed to the ‘good disagreement’ culture of the best of Anglicanism. It is the solution proposed by the ‘circumcision’ group of missionaries to the churches of Galatia and Macedonia that was utterly condemned by Paul (and so completely ‘unbiblical’). It has nothing to do with the complex history of the specific context of the Diocese in Europe. It is about one side saying we have nothing to learn from the other and establishing a ‘pure’ church. Soon it will be about establishing male headship and will induce… Read more »

dr.primrose
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dr.primrose

My understanding is that there are four overlapping jurisdictions. In addition, to the CofE diocese and the TEC churches, there are independent Anglican provinces in Spain and Portugal. Then, of course, Anglicans are in full communion with the Old Catholics, so that arguably makes five overlapping jurisdictions.

There are historical reasons for all this and there have been discussions about making a unified European province that doesn’t overlap. But until now, I’ve never heard anyone claim that the situation in Europe is an ideal one that should be adopted elsewhere.

Simon Kershaw
Admin

The British members of the Anglican Communion are also in full communion with the Lutheran Churches of the Nordic and Baltic: the Porvoo Communion.

Richard
Guest
Richard

TEC Convocation has no parishes or missions in Spain or Portugal, so there is no overlapping there. The CofE Diocese in Europe has significant overlap. In the GAFCON world, the US has many ACNA dioceses which overlap. Perhaps Abp Davies would make more sense using that as his example (although I don’t think it would be a good example).

Paul Powers
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Paul Powers

ACNA dioceses can be said to overlap with TEC dioceses only in the sense that RC dioceses do.

Richard
Guest
Richard

I believe you are incorrect; first, I did not propose that ACNA dioceses overlap with TEC dioceses. (They do, and you are correct.) Within ACNA, there are dioceses which overlap: have a look at the borders of Diocese of the South, Diocese of South Carolina, Diocese of the Southeast. ACNA comprises jurisdictions which are geographic as well as affinity-based. Before Bishop Mark Lawrence and his Diocese of South Carolina joined ACNA, that area of the US was already part of ACNA diocese(s).

Richard
Guest
Richard

Also, the ACNA Diocese of the Carolinas covers South Carolina.

dr.primrose
Guest
dr.primrose

TEC is also in full communion with the Church of Sweden.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

What also needs to be undeerstood about the Diocese of Sydney and its opposition to S/S relationships – under the current and previous Archbishops – is that it spent diocesan funds to the extent of more than AU$ One Million to try to prevent the Australian Government from voting for ‘Equal Marriage’, recently. It did not succeed. Just think of the positive good that money could have achieved for the real Mission to the poor of the Church!

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Sydney resolutely remains in communion with the Church Of England… despite its polity of ordaining women presbyters and bishops. All seen as being unbiblical by Sydney

Richard
Guest
Richard

Let’s see if Sydney’s bishops attend Lambeth 2020. Sydney is barely in communion with the other dioceses of the Anglican Church of Australia. The female bishops (and one female metropolitan) are seen has having no authority and no valid priestly or episcopal ministry. That’s not “communion”, innit?

Edward Prebble
Guest
Edward Prebble

I note that Archbishop Davies was concerned in his comments that he might offend some cultural sensitivities. He was talking in reference to the Tikanga Maori welcome he had received. I wish however he had been more sensitive to an overarching cultural dynamic. We Kiwis really don’t appreciate Australians coming across the ditch to tell us what to do. Canadian TA readers can probably appreciate what I mean. New Zealanders regard our bigger cousins rather the way Canadians relate to the USA. As long as they remain their side of the border, and keep their nose out of our business,… Read more »

Brian Ralph
Guest
Brian Ralph

I heartily agree, Edward. I am an Australian (now a proud dual citizen) who moved over the ditch when I retired. Just one of many reasons was to get away from the Diocese of Sydney which I now consider a blight on my life. I knew not to choose Nelson and, on a visit to Christchurch in 2006, I learnt there was some controversy over he Altar frontal in the Cathedral which delayed its consecration. On asking the guide why, he replied, do you know anything about the Diocese of Sydney. I, of course, groaned and he went on to… Read more »

Edward Prebble
Guest
Edward Prebble

Yes, Brian. I did toy with various versions in antipodean vernacular, but they all ran the risk of being rejected by TA’s upstanding editors. “Please go away, Sir” was the best I could do.

Roderick Gillis
Guest
Roderick Gillis

“Canadian TA readers can probably appreciate what I mean.” Canada does have some experience with Americans wanting to import cultural wars . There is also the Anglican Network in Canada and its relationship to ACNA; but its is just a petty nuisance. Relationships with TEC are pretty much in the chill lounge, very relaxed and cordial and historically so. Huge sections of our modern prayer book (BAS) come from the 1979 TEC book. The larger question of Canada U.S. relations is much more complex historically and currently. There are so many familial, institutional, economic and cultural cross connections. However there… Read more »

Simon W
Guest
Simon W

The first parishes who are ‘disaffiliating’ are due to leave at the end of September, so it will be interesting to observe which male priest is then ordained as bishop by Gafcon to give oversight for former ACANZP parishes.

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[…] Archbishop Davies’ proposal was contained in this document. The proposal was described in Sydney as: Archbishop presents proposal for NZ Anglican future. We reported it in August as Archbishop of Sydney proposes ‘Distinctive Co-existence’ for ACANZP. […]